Self defense and security teams?

[Christforums]

Not really sure what it is you're asking. My point was contrasting the difference between the Body going out into the world on the offense, and the Body taking precautions within assemblies.

I understand, and personally believe the worst atrocities are committed in the church because when the church sins, the sins are made in the name of G-d. I do believe our battle is spiritual, but because Paul used metaphorical military terms in the spiritual realm doesn't mean our battles are not also physical. However, I do agree w/ you in that the context addresses the issues w/in the assembly. I do believe @Darrell C the mission and objective of the church isn't militarily but spiritual.

I heard recently about an Islamist that converted to Christianity, after he took part of and witnessed the execution of Christians. What he testified to was how they behaved like sheep being led to the slaughter. I wanted to know whether the "civil magistrates" had known about him and whether he was at the very least questioned or vetted? People won't believe the Scriptures (sola scriptura) but their faith is swayed by examples existing today in the World?

I just try to keep in mind what Jesus said regarding the expectation that the Messiah would fight against injustice in their environment when He said "My kingdom is not of this world".

I agree, and in context the kingdom of G-d was not ruled by Pontius Pilate or the Roman Empire. The principle however can be applied to the World and unfortunately leads to theological fatalism which misinterprets "the World" to anywhere or anytime on earth.

 

[Christforums]

No, you lovingly allow your neighbor or your neighbors children to be victimized.

Especially if within the church. Then pray for forgiveness for what was left undone. And leave it undone.

We are to appeal to the civil magistrates. That was a common theme throughout the Scriptures. Jesus conveyed to about the unjust ruler etc., which in his time too illustrated the same problems today. I do not believe Jesus meant to convey why bother or try? While I believe in the separation of the church and state the church is still under the authority of this nation's civil magistrates. Great abuses as we know have been committed by churches here on U.S. soil. So there's where I believe Paul was leading between the reality "in this World" and not being of this World.

 

[John of Japan]

View attachment 11552View attachment 11553

View attachment 11554

Thank you! Great information about Krav Maga, which I know little about. I found it interesting that Imi started with wrestling, which is a combat sport, though few think of it as that. I used my high school wrestling in my one and only street fight. Some of the best UFC fighters have started with a wrestling base.

The "aggressiveness" mentioned in this book is called "forward pressure" in what I practice, and can be crucial in a self defense situation.

 

[John of Japan]

Someone mentioned the armor passage in Eph. 6. Paul used personal combat illustrations there and in 1 Cor. 9:26-27. The word "wrestle" there is the Greek pa-leh (πάλη), a form of wrestling similar to American "catch as catch can" ("catch" for short) or Olympic freestyle. (Abe Lincoln was a champion of "catch" wrestling.) In the 1 Cor. passage Paul talks about boxing. In neither of these or in any other place does Paul or anyone else in the NT condemn combat sports, which are also self defense methods. Interestingly enough, even pankration (παγκράτιον) is not condemned, a violent sport much like modern MMA!

 

[JonC]

Especially if within the church. Then pray for forgiveness for what was left undone. And leave it undone.

We are to appeal to the civil magistrates. That was a common theme throughout the Scriptures. Jesus conveyed to about the unjust ruler etc., which in his time too illustrated the same problems today. I do not believe Jesus meant to convey why bother or try? While I believe in the separation of the church and state the church is still under the authority of this nation's civil magistrates. Great abuses as we know have been committed by churches here on U.S. soil. So there's where I believe Paul was leading between the reality "in this World" and not being of this World.

I disagree. The parable of the unjust ruler was one about a an unjust judge who relented to a window's persistence. The point was continuously praying to a just God.

Appealing to civil magistrates is not a theme in the Bible at all. They appealed to their own judges (we are even told not to go to secular courts to decide matters but to go before the congregation).

Now, it would have been different had there been instances where Jesus condemned the unjustness of the Roman system, or appealed to them to decide issues. But He didn't.

That said, it does not bother me when Christians do so. My brothers can disagree with me, and I encourage them to follow their conscience.

 

[Christforums]

I disagree. The parable of the unjust ruler was one about a an unjust judge who relented to a window's persistence. The point was continuously praying to a just God.

Appealing to civil magistrates is not a theme in the Bible at all. They appealed to their own judges (we are even told not to go to secular courts to decide matters but to go before the congregation).

Now, it would have been different had there been instances where Jesus condemned the unjustness of the Roman system, or appealed to them to decide issues. But He didn't.

That said, it does not bother me when Christians do so. My brothers can disagree with me, and I encourage them to follow their conscience.

Then either way there is no action. The churches actions are limited here under national government. Most churches today happily abolish the Judicial system. Ancient Israel appealed to their rulers at times (Egypt, Babylon etc), and in the NT over the very matters concerning Jesus.

The church struggled w/ pacifism for hundreds of years, observing their brethren murdered, forced to convert, their women raped, their families taken into slavery, as well, losing property and citizenship, the pacifism eventually gave out to the Crusades. Thomas Aquinas Just War Theory is derived from scriptural principles and is a fruitful study.

 

[Aaron]

There is no biblical injunction to allow evil to be done to one's self. The command to love one's neighbor AS himself is a command to resist his neighbors victimization when he has the power to do so as much as he would want to be defended, with violence if necessary.

Wrenching the "resist not evil" command from its context of private, minor offenses is so far removed from love as to be a diabolical act of hatred.

Man to his wife: You are my beloved, but i cannot raise a finger to defend you from your rapist. I called 911. Gods swordbearers will soon arrive. Love your enemies, my darling! This is a CHRISTIAN house!

 

[JonC]

Then either way there is no action.

There is no action in terms of dealing with sin among the World, I agree. The action is dealing with spiritual things (changing the people rather than their actions).

I do not subscribe to the Just War Theory. The theory does seek support from Scripture,but I wouldn't say it is derived from Scripture any more than Thomas Aquinas' theories of the Cross were.

I am also aware of the Christian martyrs, and later on the issue of those who chose to convert to Islam along with those who refused...and the controversy when those who chose to convert decided to rejoin the faith.

But yes, I am aware that from the Disciples through the Early Church Christians were murdered for their faith and rather than fighting they praised God they were worthy....if that is what you mean.

But rather than thinking them foolish I applaud their faith. Would I do the same if in their shoes? I wish, but really do not know.

 

[JonC]

There is no biblical injunction to allow evil to be done to one's self.

Sure there is. If somebody strikes your cheek then turn the other. If somebody sees for your shirt give the your coat as well.

 

[Aaron]

Sure there is. If somebody strikes your cheek then turn the other. If somebody sees for your shirt give the your coat as well.

Lol. It seems you replied before reading the entire post.

 

[Cathode]

God does not use believers to execute wrath upon him that does evil? No.

Wrath sure, but dispassionate Justice is perfectly fine.

I remember the WWII flamethrower guy clearing Japanese defences saying, “ It was just a job “.
He didn’t have any malice in what he was doing.

His cause being established as just, repelling the Japanese invaders, it was simply a case of doing his job at that point.

So long as it is a legal and just cause and you are paid, then you can flame throw away with all the love in your heart.

 

[Cathode]

People get their arms and legs tangled up with their testicles on these moral questions, when it is actually quite simple.

 

[Cathode]

You will find the highest levels of security are believers, because they have to take separate qualified oaths, further to the one they already took.
The first thing they establish is that an oath means something vital to you. It’s not just a great legal peril they want you to feel.
They want you carry out your duties like your very soul depends on it.

It’s not all about physical and cognitive aptitude, everything is built around the integrity of your oath.

But you have great latitude after that and can sit in, and have unrestricted access and movement, and have certain powers granted by law.

The big one is called authorisation, justification and excuse of event. Which is as close to a “ license to kill “ as you can get.

Believers occupy the greatest positions of trust in security.

 

[JonC]

Lol. It seems you replied before reading the entire post.

Nah....I read the entire post. I just do not see in Scripture the "minor" and "major" offenses you add to the text.

It seems to me that the murder of the Disciples or later on other Christian martyrs would not be minor.

You may condemn Christians for not rising up to rescue the Apostles, but I think they may have had a greater point to their lives.

We simply disagree.

 

[Salty]

This thread will be closed no sooner than 1000 hrs GMT 6am EDT