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No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
@Silverhair



Right, so if God saved you because you performed an action, that's salvation by your works. Thats condemned by scripture.

BF how can you be so blind.

Joh_6:29 "This is the work of God, that you believe

So if God says we should believe is that wrong in your view?

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Are we not justified by faith?

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Paul disagree with your errant view so who should I believe, you or Paul.

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Paul even expanded on his comment re faith and works. It seems you are trusting in what some man told you rather than what the word of God says.

Faith in Christ Jesus is the reason one is saved. Attempting salvation through works is condemned in scripture.

Your religion has it backwards BF.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
@JonC



In fact, our turning is the result of already having been turned by God Jer 31:18

I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.
Yep.....my point is that we turn of our will (albeit a changed will). God changes our heart.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
BF how can you be so blind.

Joh_6:29 "This is the work of God, that you believe

So if God says we should believe is that wrong in your view?

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Are we not justified by faith?

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Paul disagree with your errant view so who should I believe, you or Paul.

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Paul even expanded on his comment re faith and works. It seems you are trusting in what some man told you rather than what the word of God says.

Faith in Christ Jesus is the reason one is saved. Attempting salvation through works is condemned in scripture.

Your religion has it backwards BF.
Performance of a action is a work!
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
August 5
John 6:37
Day 218
‘Shall come to me’
Read Psalm 110:1-7

No man by nature will ever, of his own accord, come to Christ and be saved. He has neither the will nor the ability, in himself, to do so. If language means anything, this is an evident truth of Holy Scripture. ‘Ye will not come to me that ye might have life.’ ‘No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.’ Yet many do come, so many that in the last day our Lord shall have gathered around him a great multitude which no man can number, even ten thousand times ten thousand. When will sinners, who will not and cannot of themselves do so, come to Christ and be saved? The answer is found in Psalm 110:3: ‘Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.’

In this world, among the fallen mass of humanity, there are a people who belong to the Lord Jesus Christ - ‘thy people’. They were chosen by him in eternal election, given to him as their Surety in the covenant of grace and redeemed by him at the cross of Calvary. They are his people. Every one of them will willingly come to him in the day of his power. There is a day appointed by God for each of his elect, a day when he will draw them to Christ by the invincible power of irresistible grace. There comes a time when the Good Shepherd must and will seek his lost sheep and effectually bring each of them into his fold. Like the millions of dew drops of the morning, all who were chosen and redeemed by Christ will be brought forth into life in the morning of his grace. Mysteriously, divinely, the multitudes of Christ’s people will be made willing and will come to him for life.

 

Paleouss

Active Member
Site Supporter
They have a will to come after they are saved. Drawing them and saving them are one and the same. Its the New Heart man thats being drawn Ezk 36:26-27
Greetings on this glorious Tuesday that God has made, Brightfame52.

Thank you for clearing up your OP. So it is clear to all what I was trying to point out, the error in the OP was...
No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,
The two errors I am pointing out in the OP are: (1) no man has the ability to come to Christ, (2) the myth that man has a freewill.

From your response to my objection, it appears you recognize the error and are more in line with what I am trying to say. That is, man most certainly has the ability to come to Christ. You simply claim, as most Calvinist do also, that the call of God must precede that ability. Therefore God gets all the glory and we should be speaking more about how God had the grace to save us not how we had the freedom to have faith in him.

This fact that the elect come freely and willingly, which all Calvinist believe, demonstrates that there is no "myth" that man has a freewill. It simply means that the Calvinist believes that grace precedes it. This doesn't cancel out the debate between the Calvinist and Arminians. It simply helps zero in on what is actually disputed. And what is actually at the epicenter of the debate is... what constitutes freely or freedom. Arminians often disagree with how the Calvinist formulate freedom of the will. Calvinist often disagree with how the Arminians want to talk about this free will stuff.

The Calvinist, because they claim that mankind comes freely or freely refuses, often formulates 'the call' as being irresistible (the "I" in TULIP). But so we don't muddy the waters back up, the concept of irresistible grace is not a concept of 'power' but a concept of 'love and truth'. When I say it is not of 'power', I mean to say it is not one of an irresistible force of power that bludgeons the elect into submission. And when I say 'love and truth', I mean that the concept of irresistible grace is a concept of a force of undeniable truth about the love of God. The Call is therefore one of an enlightening and undeniable realization of God's love and truth. And who could deny that? Therefore the elect freely come.

Peace to you brother
 

Paleouss

Active Member
Site Supporter
God OWES nobody "grace".
Greetings atpollard. Grace and hope to you and yours.

I usually like most of what you write. Within this thread, it is the same. Although there are minor disagreements, I do have one more major disagreement however. I hope to gain some insight and explore this disagreement.
There is no "justice" in "mercy
I would first like to start by saying that I see "grace" and "mercy" as being different but sometimes overlapping concepts. I will not explore that distinction here however.

It is my contention that to avoid creating divine dissonance within the characteristics of God, both justice and grace must be related in some way when expressing our theology. That is, there must be justice in mercy.

The ground of particular election is the universal offer of mercy derived from the Law, for the Law is the ground for justice and mercy (Mat 23:23). For there can be no ground for mercy that does not create divine dissonance, if not grounded in the universal Law. Mercy cannot be mercy if not for justice, and justice cannot be justice if not grounded in the eternally consistent and universal Law of God. Mercy springs forth from justice, it is part of justice and justice a part of it; for both are a reflection of the Law and ultimately of the attributes of the divine nature of God.

Mercy as Part of the Law: Considering the concept of God’s Law, a pardon is part of the law. The pardon does not stand outside the law in a category considered ‘good pleasure’; it stands as part of the law. The Law is good (Rom 7:12), the Law is holy (Rom 7:12), it is perfect and true (Psa 119:142, Psa 19:7), the Law is love, righteous and pure (Rom 13:10, Psa 19:9, Rom 7:14), and it is spiritual, unchangeable, and eternal (Rom 7:14, Matt 5:18, Psa 111:7-8). Therefore, if the law is all these things, and the most important of these for this post being ‘eternal’ and unchangeable. Then mercy, like justice, does not work outside the Law but within it. It, like all the decrees of God, are consistent with the character of God.

Mercy is rooted and springs forth from the universal and eternal law of God; for mercy has no power where none are under the Law. We read in Matthew 23:23 that "justice and mercy and faith" are "weightier matters of the law".
(Matt 23:23 NKJV) 23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier [matters] of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
As can be seen in Matthew 23:23, Jesus describes “mercy” as a weighty matter of the law along with “justice”. In other words, mercy is properly placed as part of the law along with justice. Where there are not those subjected to justice, one cannot find mercy; where there are those who have not fallen, mercy cannot pick back up. Thus, there can be no election after a fall without mercy that is derived from the Law, and mercy cannot by the grounding of election without those who are under the justice of the Law.
  1. Mercy forgives sins
  2. Only actions condemned by the law of God are properly called sins.
  3. Mercy can only forgive sins that are condemned by the Law.
Now, for a decree of mercy to truly be impartial when grounded in the Law, it, the decree within the law that there can be mercy, must be one of universality. For the Law itself is universal, fair and consistent.

Distinction
  • Particular election is grounded in a universal mercy of God's good pleasure.
  • Who God chooses is according to His good pleasure
Particular election, any concept of election for that matter, must be rooted or grounded in God’s eternal and universal decree of mercy; which is consistent with God’s Law and His character. It can be properly understood as saying that there is not an elect so that there will be mercy, but there is mercy so that there will be an elect. God does not possess the characteristics of mercy because of the elect, the elect receives mercy because of who God is, His eternal character. Further, this divine characteristic of mercy is holy, consistent, just, loving, and fair. It does not spring forth from partiality, injustice, hate, or malice. It springs forth from the eternally consistent Law of God which is a reflection of God himself. It springs forth from justice.
  1. The law is consistent and just
  2. To be consistent and just, the Law must be universal in scope
  3. The Law is universal in scope

    If the Law is consistent and just then all the statutes are universal in scope.

  4. All the statutes within the Law are consistent, just and universal
  5. Justice is grounded in the Law, it is consistent, just and universal
  6. Mercy springs from and is grounded in justice; for without justice there can be no mercy.
  7. Mercy is consistent, just and universal.
To say something is consistent, just and universal is to say that there is no partiality. Partiality is unfair, bias, in favor of one thing or person compared with another, i.e., favoritism. So how does the act of God selecting some for election and leaving others to their just condemnation not considered to be favoritism?

God, His holy word, gives us that answer. God made it by "faith" so that "it might be according to grace". Notice which one comes first as being the binding tie that fits it all together into a unified consistent stratagem, it is "by faith" so that it might be "according to grace". All this means is that God, through His holy and perfect stratagem of grace through faith, is justified by His own holy, perfect and eternal attributes which the law, justice, mercy, and faith all spring.

(Rom 4:16 NKJV) 16 Therefore [it is] of faith that [it might be] according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.

There is justice in mercy.

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
@Paleouss

From your response to my objection, it appears you recognize the error and are more in line with what I am trying to say. That is, man most certainly has the ability to come to Christ.

No, not the unsaved natural man. Thats what Jesus is talking about in Jn 6:44.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Do you agree with this: Performance of an action is a work!
Define "action".
If I play a tambourine as "worship" (one of the Hebrew words for worship is with musical instruments) is that "an action"?
Would that make it "a work"?

What about singing or prayer, are those "actions"?
Is "repentance" (changing of opinion/thought) an "action"?
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Do you agree with this: Performance of a action is a work!

Sure but what does that have to do with someone believing in Christ?

I have given you clear Scripture and you hold to a religion that has pagan roots.

It is not the truth you are looking for BF but rather compliance with your errant views that is why you continue with your silly non-biblical posts.

You continue to deny the clear word of God so you can hold onto your false religion. Why is that BF?

Joh_6:29 "This is the work of God, that you believe


So if God says we should believe is that wrong in your view?


Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.


Are we not justified by faith?


Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,


Paul disagree with your errant view so who should I believe, you or Paul.


Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.


Paul even expanded on his comment re faith and works. It seems you are trusting in what some man told you rather than what the word of God says.

Faith in Christ Jesus is the reason one is saved. Attempting salvation through works is condemned in scripture.

So you can either believe the word of God or you can continue to deny the truth.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Define "action".
If I play a tambourine as "worship" (one of the Hebrew words for worship is with musical instruments) is that "an action"?
Would that make it "a work"?

What about singing or prayer, are those "actions"?
Is "repentance" (changing of opinion/thought) an "action"?

I have seen few people work so hard as you do to deny the word of God.

The view you continue to push is not in the word of God but in what some man has told you the word of God says.

Why do you struggle with faith BF.

The bible is clear so I have to ask how, or better yet, why do you deny it?

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

What should Paul have said to the jailer when he asked what he must do to be saved? Act 16:30-31

According to you Paul preached works salvation.

So if this is the word of God and by you logic BF faith is a work then salvation by works is the correct understanding of the bible.

Then we can look at what John wrote in Joh 3:14-15. Here we have Jesus speaking and telling us that the ones that believe will be saved, are you going to tell me Christ was telling people to do work to earn they way to heaven?

The bible continues to show you that your view is foolish so why do you keep trying to defend it?
 

Zaatar71

Active Member
Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !
These verses are so clear. Thanks for posting truth here.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Define "action".
If I play a tambourine as "worship" (one of the Hebrew words for worship is with musical instruments) is that "an action"?
Would that make it "a work"?

What about singing or prayer, are those "actions"?
Is "repentance" (changing of opinion/thought) an "action"?
An action is something you do.

Websters:

a thing done : deed
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
@Silverhair



Its something man does, an action of his. God doesnt believe in Christ for an individual, the individual believes.

You got it {fill in the blank} and God saves those that believe.

So it cannot be a work as we are told that no one will be saved by works.

I know it is hard for you to accept this truth but Paul states it clearly.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

And we know that gift is salvation as once again Paul makes this clear:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We cannot earn our salvation through works BF as then it would be a debt that God was obligated to pay. Faith is a trust response to the gracious gift that He has offered to the world.

If you want to continue to call faith a work then that just shows that you do not understand faith or work in relation to our salvation.
 
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