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Is "tree of life" in some Bibles at Revelation 22:19 a sheer conjecture that doesn't exist?

Logos1560

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Concerning Revelation 22:19 in his commentary on the book of Revelation, Peter Ruckman wrote: “All the new translations say ‘tree of life’ instead of ‘book of life.’ Again, the change is uncalled for, the Receptus reads ‘bibliou.’ “Tree of life’ is sheer conjecture. No alternate reading is given in Nestle’s Critical Apparatus, and the ASV and RSV are putting in an Alexandrian conjecture that doesn’t exist” (p. 606).

Ron Minton maintained that the KJV followed the Latin Vulgate at Revelation 22:19 “where all known Greek manuscripts have ‘tree of life,’ but the Latin has ‘book of life’” (Making and Preservation, p. 132, footnote 216). Concerning Revelation 22:19, Doug Kutilek claimed: “All Greek manuscripts read ‘tree of life;’ not a single one reads ‘book of life’” (Erasmus, His Greek Text, p. 3). Doug Kutilek asserted: "The fact that all textus receptus editions of Stephanus, Beza, et al. read with Erasmus shows that their texts were more or less slavish reprints of Erasmus' text and not independently compiled editions, for had they been edited independently of Erasmus, they would surely have followed the Greek manuscripts here and read 'tree of life'" (Westcott & Hort vs. Textus Receptus, p. 3). Glenn Conjurske noted: “The Greek column of the Complutensian reads ‘tree of life,’ not ‘book of life,’ while the adjacent column which contains the Latin Vulgate reads libro vite, that is ‘book of life’” (Bible Version, p. 252).

John Nordstrom maintained that Erasmus acknowledged in his annotations that he had translated the last six verses of Revelation 22 from the Latin Vulgate, but that the printer did not choose to print that note in the printed edition. John Nordstrom asserted: “This omission can be verified by placing side-by-side Erasmus’ hand-copied notes with the actual printed copy” (Strained by Blood, p. 74). KJV defender Laurence Vance noted: “Since Codex 2814 was missing the text of Revelation 22:16b-22, Erasmus infamously translated the passage into Greek from the Latin Vulgate, which he acknowledged in the first edition of his annotations” (Text of the KJB, p. 369). Jan Krans claimed that Erasmus wrote in his annotation on Revelation 22:20 the following as translated into English: “However, at the end of this book, I found some words in our versions which were lacking in the Greek copies, but we added them from the Latin” (Beyond What is Written, p. 55-56, footnote 11).

Does Peter Ruckman avoid, ignore, or dismiss all known Greek NT manuscript evidence for Revelation 22:19? How could Peter Ruckman honestly allege that "tree of life" at Revelation 22:19 in many modern English Bibles is a "sheer conjecture"?
 

37818

Well-Known Member
It is my understanding:

All Greek codex of Revelation 22:19, . . . tree of life . . . .

Only Revelation 22:19, TR Greek has . . . book of life . . . .
 
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Van

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Gee, if the KJV is wrong at Revelation 22:19, then it is not an inspired translation, just a wonderful translation by non-inspired people, who made mistakes in translation.

If anyone thinks the KJV only folks will accept this truth, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Does Peter Ruckman avoid, ignore, or dismiss all known Greek NT manuscript evidence for Revelation 22:19? How could Peter Ruckman honestly allege that "tree of life" at Revelation 22:19 in many modern English Bibles is a "sheer conjecture"?

At the end of the day following the scholars will not definitively settle the issue on which rendering is right. There are too many scholars with different opinions and the best one can do is form their own opinion by following the logic of the scholars they think are best. This is what L1560 has done. He has quoted the scholars he likes. The best he can do is state his opinion now.

But God has given us a better way and one that will instill convictions of truth in our minds by utilizing it. It is comparisons of how words and terms are used by God throughout his word. The consistency of how he uses these word are this precise that we can actually erase doubts on passages that are questioned.

KJV
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

NASB
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and [a]from the holy city, which are written in this book.

One should look at this where it is used and in what context. I have done that and am sure the KJV is correct.

________________________________
THE KJV

  1. Philippians 4:3
    And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

  2. Revelation 3:5
    He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

  3. Revelation 13:8
    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

  4. Revelation 17:8
    The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

  5. Revelation 20:12
    And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

  6. Revelation 20:15
    And whosoever was not found written in the book of lifewas cast into the lake of fire.

  7. Revelation 21:27
    And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

  8. Revelation 22:19
    And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
________

____
  1. Genesis 2:9
    And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

  2. Genesis 3:22
    And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

  3. Genesis 3:24
    So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

  4. Proverbs 3:18
    She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

  5. Proverbs 11:30
    The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

  6. Proverbs 13:12
    Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.

  7. Proverbs 15:4
    A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.

  8. Revelation 2:7
    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

  9. Revelation 22:2
    In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    Revelation 22:14
    Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city
    _____________________________________________
LOGIG & REASON BY COMPARISONS

The Kjv is correct. Re 22:19 must be correct with "Book of Life" because there is no instance when anyone is "IN" the tree of life. "The" TREE OF LIFE is a specific entity that gives life. There is such a thing, according to the wording of scripture, as "a" tree of life but it is a facsimile of the real pattern. The Book of Life, OTOH, has names in it that were put there from the foundation of the earth with no new names added since then. They can only be blotted out. This means all the names of all people were written in the book of life but they are not all there at the end times judgement.
 
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Logos1560

Well-Known Member
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He has quoted the scholars he likes. The best he can do is state his opinion now.
Peter Ruckman is not a scholar that I like. Facts concerning the reading of all preserved Greek NT manuscript copies would not be an opinion.

The point of the post was not opinions. The point was the actual facts. All preserved Greek NT manuscript copies of the book of Revelation have the reading "tree of life" at Revelation 22:19.

Do KJV-only advocates suggest that God failed to preserve the correct reading at Revelation 22:19 in all the preserved Greek NT manuscripts?
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
The reading "Book of Life" is indeed preserved in the "Textus Receptus" :

" καὶ ἐάν τις ἀφαιρῇ ἀπὸ τῶν λόγων βίβλου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης, ἀφαιρήσει ὁ Θεὸς τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ βίβλου τῆς ζωῆς, καὶ ἐκ τῆς πόλεως τῆς ἁγίας, καὶ τῶν γεγραμμένων ἐν βιβλίῳ τούτῳ."

...while the Nestle Greek of 1904 ( almost unchanged today from what it was back then, and built primarily upon the even narrower-in-scope "Critical Text" that was first released around 1881 ) has it like this:

" καὶ ἐάν τις ἀφέλῃ ἀπὸ τῶν λόγων τοῦ βιβλίου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης, ἀφελεῖ ὁ Θεὸς τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ ἐκ τῆς πόλεως τῆς ἁγίας, τῶν γεγραμμένων ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ."


Careful comparison of the texts above ( the first being Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894 and the second being Nestle's essentially Critical Text of 1904 ) shows that " ἀπὸ βίβλου τῆς ζωῆς" means "Book of Life", and "ἀπὸ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς" means "Tree of Life".

The simple fact of the matter is, the CT, which is built upon an even narrower selection of extant Greek manuscripts than even the TR was and is, has been adopted in these last days by scholars who believe that the Lord has not preserved His words for His people in every generation...
That we are on an almost never-ending journey of discovery that may or may not lead to all of those words being recovered.

But I know that He has preserved them, and I know where to find them.

That aside, the extant Greek manuscripts are not the only places that God has preserved His words, either.
There are other "witnesses" in early sources and translations from which to corroborate and arrive at a different ( and I believe correct ) reading.

The "Old Latin" is one of them, while the "Peshitta" and "Syriac" are among others.
 
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Dave G

Well-Known Member
We as believers in Jesus Christ know very well that men are not perfect...
That's why we are in need of a Saviour.

But we also, by faith, know that God can and does use some men as the instruments for transmitting ( and most importantly preserving ) His every word for each generation of His people that He calls by the preaching of those words and by the power of His Holy Spirit.


Whether or not all of those who profess Christ agree with me is not the issue in threads like this;
Rather, whether or not people like me are allowed to have a voice and to express that opinion without ridicule and vilification, is.
That said and speaking strictly for myself, it is not my place to speak evil of men, nor to do anything other than what my Lord has commanded of me here:

" Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."( Matthew 7:12 ).
" And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." ( Luke 6:31 ).

My opinion is that the reading, "Book of Life" in Revelation 22:19 is indicative of the correctly preserved reading...
And just because most, if not all, of the remaining Greek manuscripts in existence today read one way, does not necessarily mean that that is the correct reading.

Again, there are other witnesses to be considered in cases like this.
 
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Dave G

Well-Known Member
This concludes my involvement in this thread.

For those who have questions about this issue, please do your own research on it...and most importantly, compare the translations in your native tongues with others from differing Greek textual foundations, and see how they read.

Don't be afraid to ask the hard questions about why some believe that we do not yet have God's every word, while others do.

After all, we worship a God who created the heavens and the earth;
How could He not leave His people with the ability to know where to find His words (that are so important for them to have, and to take comfort in ), but to leave that entire process in the hands of imperfect men to govern?

My position is that He doesn't, and never has...
But that we also have an enemy who works in and through men, and can and does seek to cause confusion among the churches is something that
Paul knew about ( and told us as much about ) in his epistles.


May God bless you.
 
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Logos1560

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My opinion is that the reading, "Book of Life" in Revelation 22:19 is indicative of the correctly preserved reading...
And just because most, if not all, of the remaining Greek manuscripts in existence today read one way, does not necessarily mean that that is the correct reading.
It is not just most Greek NT manuscripts that do not have the reading "book of life" at Revelation 22:19. It is all known preserved Greek NT manuscript copies that do not have it.

Ron Minton maintained that the KJV followed the Latin Vulgate at Revelation 22:19 “where all known Greek manuscripts have ‘tree of life,’ but the Latin has ‘book of life’” (Making and Preservation, p. 132, footnote 216). Concerning Revelation 22:19, Doug Kutilek claimed: “All Greek manuscripts read ‘tree of life;’ not a single one reads ‘book of life’” (Erasmus, His Greek Text, p. 3).
 
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