How to Dress for Church

[JonC]

Yes, who determines!
A couple of years ago, I visited a Baptist church - and the pastor wore a T-Shirt with Bermuda shorts and he had
a dozen piercings .
How about hair color - all kinds of crazy things I have seen.
Should a local church have standards for members; higher standards for leaders?

Lets go to the extreme - suppose someone showed up at your service:
A) A man fully dressed as a female
B) A female who was wearing a bikini
C) A teen wants to bring his basketball into the sanctuary?

1. Not appropriate (I think an argument from Scrioture can be made here)
2. How does she look? (Just kidding...I would say overly revealing clothing is inappropriate).
3. I think the teen could bring his basketball into the sanctuary, but not use it.

 

[John of Japan]

I agree that we should not show special attention to the one dresses well while not the poor who doesn't.

We have had people show up to worship God wearing a dingy t-shirt and dirty blue jeans. They were no less welcomed than those wearing sports coats. We have to realize that people matter, not what they wear.

I've already said this in a different way.

In regard to those showing up to church being welcomed if modestly dressed, how are you defining "modestly dressed"?

I ask because you mentioned wearing nice clothes as an act of respect, but what one considers appropriate another may consider extravagant. For example, if a man showed up wearing a suit snd an expensive watch would he not be welcomed for not dressing moderately? Or a woman wearing gold earrings and pearls? Who decides what is too expensive to wear? Who decides wearing a Tag is moderate but a Patek too extreme to be welcomed in a church (for example)?

I don't know what a "Tag" or a "Patek" are.

Discussing what modesty is would take a whole nother thread. I'm not sure I want to participate--the fall semester starts very soon. But the Greek word only occurs twice in the NT (1 Tim. 2:9 and 3:2). Here is the meaning from the Friberg, Friberg and Miller lexicon: "κόσμιος on strictly well-arranged; (1) of persons disciplined, honorable, respectable (1T 3.2); (2) of dress characterized by respectability modest, sensible ( 1T 2.9)."

 

[JonC]

I've already said this in a different way.

I don't know what a "Tag" or a "Patek" are.

Discussing what modesty is would take a whole nother thread. I'm not sure I want to participate--the fall semester starts very soon. But the Greek word only occurs twice in the NT (1 Tim. 2:9 and 3:2). Here is the meaning from the Friberg, Friberg and Miller lexicon: "κόσμιος on strictly well-arranged; (1) of persons disciplined, honorable, respectable (1T 3.2); (2) of dress characterized by respectability modest, sensible ( 1T 2.9)."

Tag and Patek are watches.

I think it is simpler with "modesty" in terms of dress. Mention is not only the word but counter examples (gold rings, etc).

You said that a person not wearing a suit but dressed "modestly" would be welcomed in your church.

I am asking if a woman wearing dirty jeans, an old t-shirt and flip-flops would be welcomed in your church.

The readon I ask is that the context of a verse you mentioned was about how we treat those are poor. Our church is located in an area with a large homeless population (intentionally located there). We often have people dressed as I described above because that is what they own. They live on the streets (they can sleep at the shelter at night but have to leave each morning). They carry around what they own in bags.

Would they be welcomed in your church and thought of in the same way others who wear a suit?

 

[John of Japan]

Tag and Patek are watches.

I think it is simpler with "modesty" in terms of dress. Mention is not only the word but counter examples (gold rings, etc).

You said that a person not wearing a suit but dressed "modestly" would be welcomed in your church.

I am asking if a woman wearing dirty jeans, an old t-shirt and flip-flops would be welcomed in your church.

The readon I ask is that the context of a verse you mentioned was about how we treat those are poor. Our church is located in an area with a large homeless population (intentionally located there). We often have people dressed as I described above because that is what they own. They live on the streets (they can sleep at the shelter at night but have to leave each morning). They carry around what they own in bags.

Would they be welcomed in your church and thought of in the same way others who wear a suit?

Certainly they would be welcome. But they would grow out of that as they grew spiritually. Dirty jeans? An old T? flip flops? I've seen them, talked to them. But growth is needed. I've discipled a man who didn't dress much better. Now he wears a suit--and I said not a single word to him about clothing!

 

[JonC]

Certainly they would be welcome. But they would grow out of that as they grew spiritually. Dirty jeans? An old T? flip flops? I've seen them, talked to them. But growth is needed. I've discipled a man who didn't dress much better. Now he wears a suit--and I said not a single word to him about clothing!

OK...now I have more questions


1. How does one grow out of poverty?

What I mean is, does the church simply buy them a suit or a dress and keep at the building for them to wear when they come in and make them change into their own clothes when they leave?

2. Out of curiously, if you were at my church and saw the homeless come in with dirty jeans, an old t-shirt, snd flip-flops....what would you say to them about the clothes they own?

3. Why would somebody "grow out" of a new standard for church attire and into an old one? It seems that "growing out" would be moving from the old to the newer standard. Maybe those who view wearing suits as a sign of respecting God would grow out of that when they realize God is not impressed by our clothes and their dress is interpreted by many younger people as self-piety and a lack of authenticity.


It seems that the best solution would be to have everybody wear choir robes. That would keep modesty among the congregation. Only problem is nobody uses choir robes anymore.

 

[Ben1445]

OK...now I have more questions

I’ve been reading along for a while now and I don’t understand why you have questions.

1. How does one grow out of poverty?

What I mean is, does the church simply buy them a suit or a dress and keep at the building for them to wear when they come in and make them change into their own clothes when they leave?

While I don’t think I have read an answer for this question particularly yet, it has an easy answer.
Mt. 6
And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

2. Out of curiously, if you were at my church and saw the homeless come in with dirty jeans, an old t-shirt, snd flip-flops....what would you say to them about the clothes they own?

He already said that he doesn’t talk to people about their clothes.
Modesty and dirt are not the same things. I have been to church with lots of people who wear the same thing every week and probably don’t change their clothes to sleep. Nobody kicks them out for dirty clothes. Dirt isn’t immodest. There were some people who were very inappropriate and immodest at church and were told not to come back because they were intentionally undressing for people. This used to be called indecency and in some places is an offense subject to arrest.
Others whose clothes did not have sufficient material to be called modest were offered clothes to cover themselves and be modest. If they chose not to respect the request of the church, they were requested to not come back until they were dressed modestly.
No, anyone given clothes was not forced to give the clothes back. They were gifted. If you really need clothes that badly, the church was happy to help.

3. Why would somebody "grow out" of a new standard for church attire and into an old one? It seems that "growing out" would be moving from the old to the newer standard. Maybe those who view wearing suits as a sign of respecting God would grow out of that when they realize God is not impressed by our clothes and their dress is interpreted by many younger people as self-piety and a lack of authenticity.

Romans 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

There is a principle in these verses that applies. If someone feels that they should dress a certain way for church and that to not do that is wrong, for them to not do it would be to sin against their own conscience, to willingly do wrong.
There is a moral teaching that is subject to standards but is an undeniable fact that God has given us clothes and that we need to be covered.

It seems that the best solution would be to have everybody wear choir robes. That would keep modesty among the congregation. Only problem is nobody uses choir robes anymore.

A little extravagant but it would work for church. I don’t like choir robes.
What about the rest of the week? Is it okay to cover what God gave you on Sunday and show it the rest of the week?
There is an acceptable amount of visible skin. To go beyond what is modest and wear what is suggestive and revealing is not modest and is not acceptable Christian behavior.
But if choir robes are the solution, don’t have a double standard for modesty, wear them all week.

 

[JonC]

I’ve been reading along for a while now and I don’t understand why you have questions.

While I don’t think I have read an answer for this question particularly yet, it has an easy answer.
Mt. 6
And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

He already said that he doesn’t talk to people about their clothes.
Modesty and dirt are not the same things. I have been to church with lots of people who wear the same thing every week and probably don’t change their clothes to sleep. Nobody kicks them out for dirty clothes. Dirt isn’t immodest. There were some people who were very inappropriate and immodest at church and were told not to come back because they were intentionally undressing for people. This used to be called indecency and in some places is an offense subject to arrest.
Others whose clothes did not have sufficient material to be called modest were offered clothes to cover themselves and be modest. If they chose not to respect the request of the church, they were requested to not come back until they were dressed modestly.
No, anyone given clothes was not forced to give the clothes back. They were gifted. If you really need clothes that badly, the church was happy to help.

Romans 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

There is a principle in these verses that applies. If someone feels that they should dress a certain way for church and that to not do that is wrong, for them to not do it would be to sin against their own conscience, to willingly do wrong.
There is a moral teaching that is subject to standards but is an undeniable fact that God has given us clothes and that we need to be covered.

A little extravagant but it would work for church. I don’t like choir robes.
What about the rest of the week? Is it okay to cover what God gave you on Sunday and show it the rest of the week?
There is an acceptable amount of visible skin. To go beyond what is modest and wear what is suggestive and revealing is not modest and is not acceptable Christian behavior.
But if choir robes are the solution, don’t have a double standard for modesty, wear them all week.

I have questions because of what he said.

I said that we have had homeless people come in wearing dirty jeans, a t-shirt and flip-flops. He said that it has happened to him as well. He said that these need growth, to be discipled.

But this does not make sence to me. Why would a homeless person need growth and to be discipling because of his clothing?

Maybe the man living in poverty is spiritually rich. Maybe he is the one who needs to do the discipling.

Why assume a spiritual state by the clothes a man owns?

 

[John of Japan]

I have questions because of what he said.

I said that we have had homeless people come in wearing dirty jeans, a t-shirt and flip-flops. He said that it has happened to him as well. He said that these need growth, to be discipled.

But this does not make sence to me. Why would a homeless person need growth and to be discipling because of his clothing?

Oh, stop it. I did not say that clothing was a needed part of discipling someone. You twisted my words.

 

[JonC]

Oh, stop it. I did not say that clothing was a needed part of discipling someone. You twisted my words.

Sorry, I didn't mean to twist your words.

Certainly they would be welcome. But they would grow out of that as they grew spiritually. Dirty jeans? An old T? flip flops? I've seen them, talked to them. But growth is needed. I've discipled a man who didn't dress much better. Now he wears a suit--and I said not a single word to him about clothing!

From this post it appears to me that you were associating how one dresses with their spiritual state (they would grow out of wearing jeans as they grew spiritually, that wearing jeans and a shirt indicates growth is needed). My question was about how the homeless (that was the encounter I offered) would grow into wearing a suit.

We cannot assume that a person is spiritually lacking simply because he has no pillow to lay his head, or owns no nice clothes, or lacks the money to buy a new t-shirt much less an inexpensive suit.

 

[John of Japan]

Sorry, I didn't mean to twist your words.

Okay.

From this post it appears to me that you were associating how one dresses with their spiritual state (they would grow out of wearing jeans as they grew spiritually, that wearing jeans and a shirt indicates growth is needed). My question was about how the homeless (that was the encounter I offered) would grow into wearing a suit.

You missed the point completely. I DID NOT SAY THAT THEIR CLOTHES SHOWED THEIR SPIRITUAL STATE. It does not. Often a new believer (whatever their clothing) is closer to God than some well-dressed saint. My point was that spiritual growth can result in a better situation for a person after salvation. Have you ever ministered in a rescue mission? When an alcoholic gets saved, all sorts of good things happen, including taking better care of himself and his family.

We cannot assume that a person is spiritually lacking simply because he has no pillow to lay his head, or owns no nice clothes, or lacks the money to buy a new t-shirt much less an inexpensive suit.

I NEVER ASSUMED THIS! AND NEVER SAID IT.

 

[John of Japan]

One of my favorite Japanese of all time was Togo San. He came into our service in Yokohama one day wearing a military jacket. He loved war, the military, even Hitler. After coming for some time, Togo San borrowed Hal Lindsey's Lage Great Planet Earth, and reading it till 3:00 in the morning, he got saved! He was so excited as a new Christian. However, he was an amphetamine addict. He dressed a little better after salvation, but still liked that jacket. He told me I was the only person ever to visit him in his home, where he had a ton of military memorabilia.

After we moved to Hokkaido, we kept in touch. He was my buddy, my friend. Then one day I got a call from his girl friend, who weeping told me Togo was in Heaven. But he had told her about Jesus, so she was easy to lead to the Lord over the phone. After he died, Togo's witness won a soul to Christ, something many backslidden, nicely dressed believers never do!

U. San was a yakuza gangster. But he dressed nicely, and was faithful to the Lord. He dressed a lot nicer, in fact, than many Americans I've seen. Why? He showed honor to the Lord and his church and pastor. As a yakuza, he believed strongly in honor and respect, and he showed it.

 

[JonC]

Okay.

You missed the point completely. I DID NOT SAY THAT THEIR CLOTHES SHOWED THEIR SPIRITUAL STATE. It does not. Often a new believer (whatever their clothing) is closer to God than some well-dressed saint. My point was that spiritual growth can result in a better situation for a person after salvation. Have you ever ministered in a rescue mission? When an alcoholic gets saved, all sorts of good things happen, including taking better care of himself and his family.

I NEVER ASSUMED THIS! AND NEVER SAID IT.

Again, sorry if I misunderstood.

I am trying to understand the link made. We were talking about personal attire. I do get the jump you made from somebody wearing jeans, a t-shirt and flip-flops to growth and discipleship.

But I absolutely agree. How we dress is not an indication of our spiritual state. The guy in jeans and a t-shirt may very well be more mature than the guy in a suit (and vice versa). God does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the God looks at the heart.

 

[JonC]

One of my favorite Japanese of all time was Togo San. He came into our service in Yokohama one day wearing a military jacket. He loved war, the military, even Hitler. After coming for some time, Togo San borrowed Hal Lindsey's Lage Great Planet Earth, and reading it till 3:00 in the morning, he got saved! He was so excited as a new Christian. However, he was an amphetamine addict. He dressed a little better after salvation, but still liked that jacket. He told me I was the only person ever to visit him in his home, where he had a ton of military memorabilia.

After we moved to Hokkaido, we kept in touch. He was my buddy, my friend. Then one day I got a call from his girl friend, who weeping told me Togo was in Heaven. But he had told her about Jesus, so she was easy to lead to the Lord over the phone. After he died, Togo's witness won a soul to Christ, something many backslidden, nicely dressed believers never do!

U. San was a yakuza gangster. But he dressed nicely, and was faithful to the Lord. He dressed a lot nicer, in fact, than many Americans I've seen. Why? He showed honor to the Lord and his church and pastor. As a yakuza, he believed strongly in honor and respect, and he showed it.

I'd say the Japaneese in general are more focused on outward appearance and honor. It is their culture.When I attended the church in Kyoto the pastor wore jeans and a nice shirt. But he was younger and perhaps less traditional than the older generation.

On a different note....an unrelated question:

Japan maintained this idea of honor long after the developed world changed. Anselm centered the Atonement on man robbing God of His honor, an honor that Christ restored. But this ideology changed (with theology it shifted from honor to merit and later to justice). Japan reminds me of studying medieval thought in a way.

Here is my question....not a theological question (I probably shouldn't have used the example).

Is the reason Japan maintained this honor system because of isolation?

 

[John of Japan]

I'd say the Japaneese in general are more focused on outward appearance and honor. It is their culture.When I attended the church in Kyoto the pastor wore jeans and a nice shirt. But he was younger and perhaps less traditional than the older generation.

Japan closely follows any American trend. In medicine, for example, they are usually about ten years behind the US, and they send doctors to the US to learn the latest science. Just so in Christianity. I remember when CCM started to become popular in Japan, and it took a while for them to figure it out. So I am sure the church you visited was just following the American trend.

On a different note....an unrelated question:

Japan maintained this idea of honor long after the developed world changed. Anselm centered the Atonement on man robbing God of His honor, an honor that Christ restored. But this ideology changed (with theology it shifted from honor to merit and later to justice). Japan reminds me of studying medieval thought in a way.

Here is my question....not a theological question (I probably shouldn't have used the example).

Is the reason Japan maintained this honor system because of isolation?

Japan is called an "honor-shame" culture, and there are many such in the Far East and Near East. The seminal work on this was The Chrysanthemum and the Sword, by Ruth Benedict, a sociologist who was hired by the US government to do "anthropology at a distance" (couldn't go to Japan) to figure out why our enemy the Japanese were like they were.

In the Far East, the honor-shame cultures are based on Confucianism, not their isolation. During their period of isolation (early 16th to mid 19th centuries), they still traded, etc., with China, Korea, and the Dutch. The education of the Samurai was mainly in Confucianism, and that became the foundation of their society. In line with Confucian teaching on relationships they will say they have a vertical society, while we have a horizontal society (all are equal). So if you cause your superior to lose face, there are dire consequences. And if you lose face, that reflects on your superior, and he loses face, too. This explains the high suicide rate in Japan--shame.

That is a very simplified explanation, but maybe it will help.