• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Absolute Sovereignty of God

KenH

Well-Known Member
"But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased." Psalm 115:3

"Perhaps it can be said that no where is the deep truth of God's sovereignty set forth more simply than in the text quoted above, as well as in the parallel passage of Psalm 135:6. Clearly, the Psalmist wants us to understand that the kingship of the high and lofty One is involved, and that nothing in the entire universe escapes His sovereignty, and that the good pleasure or will of God is basic to the understanding of this subject." ...

' We tread on holy ground when we take up the tremendous truth of divine sovereignty, and we ought to be reminded that there are aspects to this truth that we cannot understand. Nevertheless, Scripture clearly and carefully sets this truth forth! The sovereignty of God is the exercise of His supremacy. God is the high and lofty One; no one is greater than He, equal to him, or any where near to Him. And when this great God acts, when He goes about His divine business, then he does so in perfect freedom! Sovereignty implies authority, and authority is the right to rule. It is the right to do what one wishes, to decide what is good and evil, to impose one's will on others and demand conformance; authority is the right to reward obedience and to punish disobedience! In close connection with this, sovereignty is the freedom to do what one pleases without being answerable to anyone. No one may question God as to what He is doing! The Scripture drives this lesson home hard in such passages as Daniel 4:35, "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doest according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay His hand, or say to Him, What doest Thou?" ' ...

"Only one can be sovereign. You can never have two sovereign beings. How could that ever be? Two that had all power and authority? Two that were the highest? Two that are perfectly free to do as they pleased? Impossible. There is One that is eternal, independent, sovereignly free, and that is GOD! Nor can any limits be placed upon God's sovereignty. There are many who would make restrictions or exceptions to divine sovereignty. They are willing to admit to sovereignty in respect to weather and climate, sickness and health, wars and other disasters. But they want to draw the line when it comes to man! They try to exclude human thoughts, words, deeds, and destinies from the sovereignty of God! But this would destroy God's sovereignty." ...

"The one great objection that has been raised against the truth of the sovereignty of God, historically but also today, is that this does away with the responsibility of man, making a man a mere piece of wood who is moved about as a pawn on the chessboard. We want to answer this objection, which is the objection of everyone who believes in the free will of man, by quoting from the Scriptures. When a man wanted to kill a certain Shimei who was cursing David, the king said, "So let him curse, because the Lord hath said unto him, Curse David. Who then shall say, Wherefore hast thou done so?'. (II Samuel 16:10) " ...

"When God wills that a man sins, and when He so rules that a man commits that sin in his life, God does this without becoming the author of the sin in any sense. God hates all sin; God detests those sins which He sovereignly wills that man commits. In fact, one reason for his willing them is that He might reveal His utter detestation of them! Further, where a man commits a sin (be that Shimei, Pharaoh, Judas Iscariot, the unbelieving Jews, you, or I) he does not do that against his own will. He doesn't do something that he does not want to do, or that he is forced into doing. Pharaoh wanted to keep the Israelites as slaves. Judas wanted that silver. With our sins, we also want something that we think is desirable. The key point in all this is that when God exercises His sovereignty in respect to man and his deeds, He does not interfere between the will of man and the act of man. If God would interject Himself between the will and the act of man, man would indeed be a stock and a block. But God works with the will of man. God works behind the scenes, as it were, so that man always wills and wants what God has determined for him. Thus we must conclude that man's will is not free because of the fall of Adam and the resulting depravity of the entire human race; the will of man is bound in the service of sin. but more than that, the will of man even before the fall was not absolutely free either. Only God is perfectly free. The sovereignty of God always surrounds man, touches him at every point, and determined what he is and does. So far is divine sovereignty from being a truth that denies the responsibility of man, it is the truth which is the basis of, and establishes, human responsibility!

We must be very brief as to the question, How does God exercise his sovereignty? Doing all things after the counsel of His own will, God freely created." ...

"God exercises his sovereignty, secondly, in providence, which is the everywhere present power of God whereby He doth, as by His hand, uphold and govern all things. "The kings heart is in the Lord's hand as the rivers of water, He turneth it whithersoever He will." (Prov. 21:1) Matters of peace and war, matters such as nations having or not having oil, iron, and other raw material; matters such as promotion, the setting up of one and the putting down of another; matters such as your and my position and station in life . . . these things come to pass not by chance but by the hand of the heavenly Father of the church!

But nowhere does the sovereignty of God stand forth so clearly and so beautifully as when He makes righteous discrimination between men according to His eternal decree of predestination, both election and reprobation! God did not have to save a single soul, but He wills to do so! And He willed to save freely of grace, in the way of the gift of faith in Jesus Christ which He graciously bestows upon His elect, and which He sovereignly withholds from the reprobate. Study the ninth chapter of Romans!"

- excerpts from "The Absolute Sovereignty of God", by D. H. Kuiper. Rest of article at The Absolute Sovereignty of God | Monergism.

(emphasis mine)
 
Last edited:

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Why would anyone question the sovereignty of God?.

“God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What are you doing?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.”

The Knowledge of the Holy: The Attributes of God A. W. Tozer
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Why would anyone question the sovereignty of God?.

“God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What are you doing?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.”

The Knowledge of the Holy: The Attributes of God A. W. Tozer

Sounds like Tozer is saying that God gave some of His sovereignty to His creation. Sounds like Tozer idea of God is more like the gods of Greek mythology than the God Who has revealed Himself in His Word.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
"But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased." Psalm 115:3

"Perhaps it can be said that no where is the deep truth of God's sovereignty set forth more simply than in the text quoted above, as well as in the parallel passage of Psalm 135:6. Clearly, the Psalmist wants us to understand that the kingship of the high and lofty One is involved, and that nothing in the entire universe escapes His sovereignty, and that the good pleasure or will of God is basic to the understanding of this subject." ...

' We tread on holy ground when we take up the tremendous truth of divine sovereignty, and we ought to be reminded that there are aspects to this truth that we cannot understand. Nevertheless, Scripture clearly and carefully sets this truth forth! The sovereignty of God is the exercise of His supremacy. God is the high and lofty One; no one is greater than He, equal to him, or any where near to Him. And when this great God acts, when He goes about His divine business, then he does so in perfect freedom! Sovereignty implies authority, and authority is the right to rule. It is the right to do what one wishes, to decide what is good and evil, to impose one's will on others and demand conformance; authority is the right to reward obedience and to punish disobedience! In close connection with this, sovereignty is the freedom to do what one pleases without being answerable to anyone. No one may question God as to what He is doing! The Scripture drives this lesson home hard in such passages as Daniel 4:35, "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doest according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay His hand, or say to Him, What doest Thou?" ' ...

"Only one can be sovereign. You can never have two sovereign beings. How could that ever be? Two that had all power and authority? Two that were the highest? Two that are perfectly free to do as they pleased? Impossible. There is One that is eternal, independent, sovereignly free, and that is GOD! Nor can any limits be placed upon God's sovereignty. There are many who would make restrictions or exceptions to divine sovereignty. They are willing to admit to sovereignty in respect to weather and climate, sickness and health, wars and other disasters. But they want to draw the line when it comes to man! They try to exclude human thoughts, words, deeds, and destinies from the sovereignty of God! But this would destroy God's sovereignty." ...

"The one great objection that has been raised against the truth of the sovereignty of God, historically but also today, is that this does away with the responsibility of man, making a man a mere piece of wood who is moved about as a pawn on the chessboard. We want to answer this objection, which is the objection of everyone who believes in the free will of man, by quoting from the Scriptures. When a man wanted to kill a certain Shimei who was cursing David, the king said, "So let him curse, because the Lord hath said unto him, Curse David. Who then shall say, Wherefore hast thou done so?'. (II Samuel 16:10) " ...

"When God wills that a man sins, and when He so rules that a man commits that sin in his life, God does this without becoming the author of the sin in any sense. God hates all sin; God detests those sins which He sovereignly wills that man commits. In fact, one reason for his willing them is that He might reveal His utter detestation of them! Further, where a man commits a sin (be that Shimei, Pharaoh, Judas Iscariot, the unbelieving Jews, you, or I) he does not do that against his own will. He doesn't do something that he does not want to do, or that he is forced into doing. Pharaoh wanted to keep the Israelites as slaves. Judas wanted that silver. With our sins, we also want something that we think is desirable. The key point in all this is that when God exercises His sovereignty in respect to man and his deeds, He does not interfere between the will of man and the act of man. If God would interject Himself between the will and the act of man, man would indeed be a stock and a block. But God works with the will of man. God works behind the scenes, as it were, so that man always wills and wants what God has determined for him. Thus we must conclude that man's will is not free because of the fall of Adam and the resulting depravity of the entire human race; the will of man is bound in the service of sin. but more than that, the will of man even before the fall was not absolutely free either. Only God is perfectly free. The sovereignty of God always surrounds man, touches him at every point, and determined what he is and does. So far is divine sovereignty from being a truth that denies the responsibility of man, it is the truth which is the basis of, and establishes, human responsibility!

We must be very brief as to the question, How does God exercise his sovereignty? Doing all things after the counsel of His own will, God freely created." ...

"God exercises his sovereignty, secondly, in providence, which is the everywhere present power of God whereby He doth, as by His hand, uphold and govern all things. "The kings heart is in the Lord's hand as the rivers of water, He turneth it whithersoever He will." (Prov. 21:1) Matters of peace and war, matters such as nations having or not having oil, iron, and other raw material; matters such as promotion, the setting up of one and the putting down of another; matters such as your and my position and station in life . . . these things come to pass not by chance but by the hand of the heavenly Father of the church!

But nowhere does the sovereignty of God stand forth so clearly and so beautifully as when He makes righteous discrimination between men according to His eternal decree of predestination, both election and reprobation! God did not have to save a single soul, but He wills to do so! And He willed to save freely of grace, in the way of the gift of faith in Jesus Christ which He graciously bestows upon His elect, and which He sovereignly withholds from the reprobate. Study the ninth chapter of Romans!"

- excerpts from "The Absolute Sovereignty of God", by D. H. Kuiper. Rest of article at The Absolute Sovereignty of God | Monergism.

(emphasis mine)


Do you not see how illogical this comment is

"When God wills that a man sins, and when He so rules that a man commits that sin in his life, God does this without becoming the author of the sin in any sense. God hates all sin; God detests those sins which He sovereignly wills that man commits. In fact, one reason for his willing them is that He might reveal His utter detestation of them!"

So what do we see here
1] God wills man to sin
2] God hates, detests sin
3] God sovereignly wills that man commits sin
3] God does this so He can show how much He hates sin

Since we know God hates sin then why would He will that man do the thing He hates? That view makes God seem really weird and conflicted.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Sounds like Tozer is saying that God gave some of His sovereignty to His creation. Sounds like Tozer idea of God is more like the gods of Greek mythology than the God Who has revealed Himself in His Word.

Tozer is just showing that God is actually sovereign.
Since God has chosen to give man a free will and thus hold him responsible for the free choices he makes then who are we to disagree with God's sovereign choice.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Tozer is just showing that God is actually sovereign.

No, Tozer is saying that his idea of God is NOT absolutely sovereign. It is like a potter giving the clay a say-so in what the potter will make the clay to be.

Tozer's idea of God is false according to God's Word.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
No, Tozer is saying that his idea of God is NOT absolutely sovereign. It is like a potter giving the clay a say-so in what the potter will make the clay to be.

Tozer's idea of God is false according to God's Word.

Strange that you say God is sovereign then you do not allow Him to be sovereign.

I have to ask, do you think adding the word "absolutely" makes God more sovereign?

God is either sovereign or He is not.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Ken it is just illogical. You have God working against Himself.

Not at all. Fallen mankind has always tried to pump up man's ability and downplay God's sovereignty. Fallen man recoils at the idea that he is not the captain of his own destiny.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Strange that you say God is sovereign then you do not allow Him to be sovereign.

It is folks like Tozer who proclaims that God is less than sovereign, that somehow man is to some degree, sovereign.

I have to ask, do you think adding the word "absolutely" makes God more sovereign?

It is placed there to differentiate the truth revealed in God's Word that God is absolutely sovereign from the man-centered idea that God is only partially sovereign and that man is also, to some degree, sovereign.

God is either sovereign or He is not.

And God IS sovereign. Which makes Tozer's position false and Biblically indefensible.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Not at all. Fallen mankind has always tried to pump up man's ability and downplay God's sovereignty. Fallen man recoils at the idea that he is not the captain of his own destiny.

God has chosen to hold man responsible for the choices that he makes. This does not downplay God or lift up man.

We see in God's word that man is held responsible for the choices he makes yet you deny this clear fact. Why?

Your view would make God responsible for all the sin and evil in the world no matter how much you try to deny this. Either man has a God given free will or he does not.

The WCF/LBCF says God determines all things which would logically include all sin and evil.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Either man has a God given free will or he does not.

He has not given His creatures any libertarian free will at all. They never had it, never will.

Your view would make God responsible for all the sin and evil in the world no matter how much you try to deny this.

So when that tree fell in Tennessee and killed three people in a car, do you think that was pure chance, or what some people would call just plain "bad luck"?

We see in God's word that man is held responsible for the choices he makes yet you deny this clear fact. Why?

Man is responsible. To quote from the OP: "Further, where a man commits a sin (be that Shimei, Pharaoh, Judas Iscariot, the unbelieving Jews, you, or I) he does not do that against his own will. He doesn't do something that he does not want to do, or that he is forced into doing. Pharaoh wanted to keep the Israelites as slaves. Judas wanted that silver. With our sins, we also want something that we think is desirable. The key point in all this is that when God exercises His sovereignty in respect to man and his deeds, He does not interfere between the will of man and the act of man. If God would interject Himself between the will and the act of man, man would indeed be a stock and a block."

The WCF/LBCF says God determines all things which would logically include all sin and evil.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
We see in God's word that man is held responsible for the choices he makes yet you deny this clear fact.

If I were to sin by calling you some obscene name on this board, it would be my fingers that did the typing. God would not be the one literally moving my fingers.

( But don't worry, Silverhair, I have no intention of calling you some obscene name. :) )
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
He has not given His creatures any libertarian free will at all. They never had it, never will.

So no free will then not responsiblity.
So when that tree fell in Tennessee and killed three people in a car, do you think that was pure chance, or what some people would call just plain "bad luck"?
Well according to your C/R view God determined to tho happen.
Man is responsible. To quote from the OP: "Further, where a man commits a sin (be that Shimei, Pharaoh, Judas Iscariot, the unbelieving Jews, you, or I) he does not do that against his own will. He doesn't do something that he does not want to do, or that he is forced into doing. Pharaoh wanted to keep the Israelites as slaves. Judas wanted that silver. With our sins, we also want something that we think is desirable. The key point in all this is that when God exercises His sovereignty in respect to man and his deeds, He does not interfere between the will of man and the act of man. If God would interject Himself between the will and the act of man, man would indeed be a stock and a block."
But again under your deterministic view man can not do other than God has determined for him to do. So man is not responsible for any sin as God is the cause of it.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Isa 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
Isa 45:8 "Drip down, O heavens, from above, And let the clouds pour down righteousness; Let the earth open up and salvation bear fruit, And righteousness spring up with it. I, the LORD, have created it.
Isa 45:9 "Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands'?

So what do you think those verse prove so that they support you r view Ken?
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
If I were to sin by calling you some obscene name on this board, it would be my fingers that did the typing. God would not be the one literally moving my fingers.

( But don't worry, Silverhair, I have no intention of calling you some obscene name. :) )

According to your deterministic view God has determined all that you do Ken, even the fact you would not call me an obscene name.

Even the fact that you can make any choices proves your deterministic view false. Odd how you cannot see that.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Well according to your C/R view God determined to tho happen.

Are you saying it was just plain "bad luck"?

So no free will then not responsiblity.
So man is not responsible for any sin as God is the cause of it.

God has declared that man is responsible for his sins; therefore, man is responsible for his sins. The issue of libertarian free will does not affect God's declaration of man's responsibility. God is the Creator, Silverhair, not you, not me, nor any other creature.

So what do you think those verse prove so that they support you r view Ken?

The verses are quite clear and support God's claim of His absolute sovereignty over His creation.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
According to your deterministic view God has determined all that you do Ken, even the fact you would not call me an obscene name.

Aren't you glad that God has determined that I will not call you an obscene name, Silverhair?

Even the fact that you can make any choices proves your deterministic view false. Odd how you cannot see that.

To again quote from the OP: "Further, where a man commits a sin (be that Shimei, Pharaoh, Judas Iscariot, the unbelieving Jews, you, or I) he does not do that against his own will. He doesn't do something that he does not want to do, or that he is forced into doing. Pharaoh wanted to keep the Israelites as slaves. Judas wanted that silver. With our sins, we also want something that we think is desirable. The key point in all this is that when God exercises His sovereignty in respect to man and his deeds, He does not interfere between the will of man and the act of man. If God would interject Himself between the will and the act of man, man would indeed be a stock and a block."
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Are you saying it was just plain "bad luck"?
Not according to the C/R deterministic view they are not. You want to eat your cake and keep it to. Either God determines all things or He has given man a free will. Can't be both.
God has declared that man is responsible for his sins; therefore, man is responsible for his sins. The issue of libertarian free will does not affect God's declaration of man's responsibility. God is the Creator, Silverhair, not you, not me, nor any other creature.
I agree man has a free will and is thus responsible but your religion does not allow for that Ken.

It is the false deterministic view of the C/R that is the problem Ken.
The verses are quite clear and support God's claim of His absolute sovereignty over His creation.

God is sovereign over His creation so why do the C/R's not allow Him to be?
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Not according to the C/R deterministic view they are not. You want to eat your cake and keep it to. Either God determines all things or He has given man a free will. Can't be both.

So I will ask you again about what happened in Tennessee, a simple yes or no will suffice as far as I am concerned:

Are you saying it was just plain "bad luck"?
 
Top