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The Absolute Sovereignty of God? Where did this doctrine come from?

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
The Absolute Sovereignty of God? Where did this doctrine come from?

The answer is very well known to those Christians who are abreast of the history of Christian doctrine. The doctrine came into the church as part of the package of early reformed theology. Prior to the 16th century, we find no such doctrine. To Jewish people throughout the history of Judaism, such a doctrine would be seen as thoroughly opposed by the Tanakh. Since the occurrence of the doctrine in some Christian circles, it has been thoroughly rejected by our Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Episcopalian, Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, and Pentecostal churches, as well as the Church of the Nazarene, Brethren Churches, Mennonite churches, etc.
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
The Absolute Sovereignty of God? Where did this doctrine come from?

The answer is very well known to those Christians who are abreast of the history of Christian doctrine. The doctrine came into the church as part of the package of early reformed theology. Prior to the 16th century, we find no such doctrine. To Jewish people throughout the history of Judaism, such a doctrine would be seen as thoroughly opposed by the Tanakh. Since the occurrence of the doctrine in some Christian circles, it has been thoroughly rejected by our Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Episcopalian, Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, and Pentecostal churches, as well as the Church of the Nazarene, Brethren Churches, Mennonite churches, etc.
But God is almighty. He is called King of kings:

“which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,” (1Ti 6:15 NKJV)

He does everything that He wishes:

“9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.” (Isa 46:9-11 NKJV)

So in what way is He not absolutely sovereign?
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
But God is almighty. He is called King of kings:

“which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,” (1Ti 6:15 NKJV)

He does everything that He wishes:

“9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.” (Isa 46:9-11 NKJV)

So in what way is He not absolutely sovereign?

@David Lamb it is not a question of whether God is sovereign, He is, it is why do those of the C/R view require the word "absolute" stuck in front of sovereign?

Do you think there is a difference between sovereign and absolute sovereign, does adding the word make God more sovereign?
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
But God is almighty. He is called King of kings:

“which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,” (1Ti 6:15 NKJV)

He does everything that He wishes:

“9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.” (Isa 46:9-11 NKJV)

So in what way is He not absolutely sovereign?
If I were to learn that the vast majority of Christians understand a biblical text differently than I do, I would know that the likelihood of my being mistaken was very great. Therefore, I would ask myself, what am I missing that is so very clear to almost everyone else?

1 Timothy 6:15 which he will bring about at the right time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords. (NRSV)

What are Reformed theologians missing in this verse? They are missing the fact that this verse neither says nor implies that God is absolutely sovereign. Indeed, what we have here is a contrast between human Kings and “our Lord Jesus Christ,” the only true “Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords.”

Isaiah 46:9. remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like me,
10. declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, "My purpose shall stand,
and I will fulfill my intention,"
11. calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man for my purpose from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have planned, and I will do it. (NRSV)

What are Reformed theologians missing in this passage? They are missing the fact that this passage is written in ancient, inspired Hebrew poetry—a genre of literature that expresses feeling and emotions rather than objective facts. As is the case with Isaiah, the book of Jonah includes both poetry and prose. Chapter 2:2-9 is written in poetry being a psalm of thanksgiving, the rest of the book is written in prose. Of critical importance to this discussion is Jonah 3:1-10:

1. The word of the Lord came to Jonah a second time, saying,
2. "Get up, go to Nineveh, that great city, and proclaim to it the message that I tell you."
3. So Jonah set out and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly large city, a three days' walk across.
4. Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's walk. And he cried out, "Forty days more, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"
5. And the people of Nineveh believed God; they proclaimed a fast, and everyone, great and small, put on sackcloth.
6. When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7. Then he had a proclamation made in Nineveh: "By the decree of the king and his nobles: No human being or animal, no herd or flock, shall taste anything. They shall not feed, nor shall they drink water.
8. Human beings and animals shall be covered with sackcloth, and they shall cry mightily to God. All shall turn from their evil ways and from the violence that is in their hands.
9. Who knows? God may relent and change his mind; he may turn from his fierce anger, so that we do not perish."
10. When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it. (NRSV)

Compare v. 4 with vv. 9 & 10,

9. Who knows? God may relent and change his mind; he may turn from his fierce anger, so that we do not perish."
10. When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it.

The people of Nineveh believed God, God was surprised, and He changed his mind upon seeing that the people of Nineveh believed. Compare the following passages in Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 18:7. At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it,
8. but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it.
9. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
10. but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.

Jeremiah 26:3. It may be that they will listen, all of them, and will turn from their evil way, that I may change my mind about the disaster that I intend to bring on them because of their evil doings.
13. Now therefore amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God, and the Lord will change his mind about the disaster that he has pronounced against you.
19. Did King Hezekiah of Judah and all Judah actually put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and did not the Lord change his mind about the disaster that he had pronounced against them? But we are about to bring great disaster on ourselves!”

God has many attributes and they interact with each other and thus affect each other making it impossible for God to be absolutely sovereign.
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
But God is almighty. He is called King of kings:

“which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,” (1Ti 6:15 NKJV)

He does everything that He wishes:

“9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.” (Isa 46:9-11 NKJV)

So in what way is He not absolutely sovereign?
question.

If God gives his creation free will. does this make him not absolutely soverign?

If you think the answer is yes.

then why?
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
question.

If God gives his creation free will. does this make him not absolutely soverign?

If you think the answer is yes.

then why?
When God created Adam and Eve, their wills were indeed free. Since their fall into sin, they and their descendants became slaves of sin. It takes an act of the sovereign God to free them. The fact that Adam and Eve could choose to obey God or not to obey Him took nothing from God's sovereignty.
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
When God created Adam and Eve, their wills were indeed free. Since their fall into sin, they and their descendants became slaves of sin. It takes an act of the sovereign God to free them. The fact that Adam and Eve could choose to obey God or not to obey Him took nothing from God's sovereignty.
So we are totally unable to fall on our face and call out To God for salvation?

Why would God do this to his creation? And not give us any hope or possible freedom from our sins?
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
So we are totally unable to fall on our face and call out To God for salvation?

Why would God do this to his creation? And not give us any hope or possible freedom from our sins?
Of ourselves, yes we are. When we do, it is not because we are better, more sensible, or have a higher IQ then those who don't, but because God has enabled us to do so.

As to your "no hope" scenario, there definitely is hope:

“1 ¶ Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.” (Ro 5:1-5 NKJV)

This sure and certain hope has its origin in God. In Christ we do indeed have freedom.
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Of ourselves, yes we are.
I disagree only Because I believe God offers everyone hope.. and the ability..

Ie. We reject God as a people. God does not reject us (we believe or we do not believe)
When we do, it is not because we are better, more sensible, or have a higher IQ then those who don't, but because God has enabled us to do so.
But God does not force us. or enable is with irresistible grace so that we do not make a decision.

this is where the division lies.

Jesus said it is the work of God we believe.

I believe God works in everyone's heart.. The person sent to hell can not claim ignorance.. They not only Know God. but know they were guilty.. And they will know they rejected God willingly..
As to your "no hope" scenario, there definitely is hope:

“1 ¶ Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.” (Ro 5:1-5 NKJV)
Yes. God offers everyone hope..

Jesus said he was not sent to judge the world. but that the world MIGHT be saved.

God offers hope to all. Sadly, not all will respond
This sure and certain hope has its origin in God. In Christ we do indeed have freedom.
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
I disagree only Because I believe God offers everyone hope.. and the ability..

Ie. We reject God as a people. God does not reject us (we believe or we do not believe)

But God does not force us. or enable is with irresistible grace so that we do not make a decision.

this is where the division lies.

Jesus said it is the work of God we believe.

I believe God works in everyone's heart.. The person sent to hell can not claim ignorance.. They not only Know God. but know they were guilty.. And they will know they rejected God willingly..

Yes. God offers everyone hope..

Jesus said he was not sent to judge the world. but that the world MIGHT be saved.

God offers hope to all. Sadly, not all will respond
God doesn't offer any hope to those who continue to refuse to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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