Ungodly Divisions

[Van]

Couldn’t find “ stretching out the hand “ in the Greek interlinear. You sure you aren’t doing some extra bibicular off-roading here mate.

Χειροτονήσαντες δὲ αὐτοῖς κατ’ ἐκκλησίαν

23 Having chosen now for them in every church

Good Grief, it is right their in Strongs. I am done, you are just obfuscating.

c. with the loss of the notion of extending the hand, to elect, appoint, create: τινα, Acts 14:23

And here is the snippet from a Greek Interlinear:
14:23 ceirotonhsantes
cheirotonEsantes
G5500
vp Aor Act Nom Pl m
HAND-STRETCHing
selecting​

​

 

[Van]

Who is the judge of false teaching in Bible alone Protestantism?

Each man’s subjective conflicting interpretation of Scripture is the judge.

There is no objective interpretation in Protestantism.

More subject change deflection.

 

[Cathode]

Good Grief, it is right their in Strongs. I am done, you are just obfuscating.

​

c. with the loss of the notion of extending the hand, to elect, appoint, create: τινα, Acts 14:23​

​

And here is the snippet from a Greek Interlinear:​

14:23 ceirotonhsantes​

cheirotonEsantes​

G5500​

vp Aor Act Nom Pl m​

HAND-STRETCHing​

selecting​

​

Χειροτονήσαντες , Cheirontonesantes, Having chosen.

Having chosen now for them in every church elders.

It’s a pretty irrelevant and obscure point you are trying to make here, if anything. I don’t see how it matters the methodology whether by hand raising or lot, people were chosen.

Anyway, the laying on of hands is when the sacramental gift of God is transferred to the Apostolic successor.

This doesn’t occur in Protestantism, but only in the Apostolic Churches the gift of God is transferred from one Apostolic Successor to another.

A man is ordained a priest through the laying on of hands, joining the unbroken lineage of Apostolic succession. The sacramental gift of God is given to him, that’s the important thing.

 

[Cathode]

More subject change deflection.

No, it’s right on point.

The highest authority in Protestantism is each man’s opinion, Scripture simply exists to justify his opinion.

It’s very different for Catholics, we hold to the singular objective interpretation of Scripture handed down from the Apostles. Our personal opinions are irrelevant.

 

[Van]

Χειροτονήσαντες , Cheirontonesantes, Having chosen.

Having chosen now for them in every church elders.

It’s a pretty irrelevant and obscure point you are trying to make here, if anything. I don’t see how it matters the methodology whether by hand raising or lot, people were chosen.

Sir, you said you could not find the meaning as if obscure. Now you do not even acknowledge that Elders were elected by the members.

Goodbye

 

[Cathode]

Sir, you said you could not find the meaning as if obscure. Now you do not even acknowledge that Elders were elected by the members.

Goodbye

You quibble with words, and the plain meaning escapes you. Is it important that people were chosen by raising or stretching hands or not?

“In the name of the Lord, tell them not to argue over words that are not important. It helps no one and it hurts the faith of those who are listening.”

Candidates were proposed by the community, much like seminarians have a period of vetting today. The community must have nothing against the person aspiring to be an elder.

It’s important that the community has a say as to who is to be elevated. They must undergo the scrutiny of the community, because a priest is a priest forever, even if his faculties have been removed, he remains a priest. The sacerdotal Mark of Christ is never effaced.

The Apostolic gift is bestowed through the laying on of hands by an Apostolic Successor. It’s a very serious thing.

This is why Paul tells Timothy not lay hands on anyone hastily.

 

[Van]

You quibble with words, and the plain meaning escapes you. SNIP

You are addressing me, not the issue. Elders were elected by the local church members, and confirmed by church leaders, sometimes including Paul, an Apostle. Acts 14:23.

So the doctrine that divides some non-Catholics from Catholic dogma, is reliance upon the leading of the Holy Spirit among local church members, and reliance upon top down authoritarian rule.

Surly this is not news to you!

 

[Natha]

Bible never accepted the divisions.. Leaders own will is caused for divisions.. It is true. Proverbs 18:
1 Through desire a man, having separated himself, seeketh and intermeddleth with all wisdom.1
2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

1. They wants full freedom
2. They want to explore their own understanding and knowledge
3. They don't want to obey to others or elders.
4. They are very rude because they want to stand alone
Many many ministries are divided to divisions
We can see the Bible translations too (example: more than 400 versions in English)

It is the plan of Devil.. He went to Eve when she is alone.
Devil always wants to encourage for own freedom

Saints need to pray for the unity in universal churches.

 

[Cathode]

So the doctrine that divides some non-Catholics from Catholic dogma, is reliance upon the leading of the Holy Spirit among local church members, and reliance upon top down authoritarian rule. SNIP

The problem is you don’t recognise the servant leadership of the Apostolic successors who have rightful authority thus aren’t authoritarian.
You think any authority is authoritarian it seems, which is the bane of all Protestantism.

The Early Church was not a democracy, and the Shepherds were guided by The Holy Spirit and ordained their successors through the laying on of hands.

 

[JesusFan]

The problem is you don’t recognise the servant leadership of the Apostolic successors who have rightful authority thus aren’t authoritarian.
You think any authority is authoritarian it seems, which is the bane of all Protestantism.

The Early Church was not a democracy, and the Shepherds were guided by The Holy Spirit and ordained their successors through the laying on of hands.

Last Apostle who died was John no successors

 

[Van]

The problem is you don’t recognise the servant leadership of the Apostolic successors who have rightful authority thus aren’t authoritarian.
You think any authority is authoritarian it seems, which is the bane of all Protestantism.

The Early Church was not a democracy, and the Shepherds were guided by The Holy Spirit and ordained their successors through the laying on of hands.

Good Grief, now you claim to be a mind reader. Sir, please to addressing your posts to me, I now know what you are and see no opportunity for mutual enlightenment.

 

[Cathode]

Last Apostle who died was John no successors

Who carried on their ministry and preserved their writings? Elves?

 

[Cathode]

Good Grief, now you claim to be a mind reader. Sir, please to addressing your posts to me, I now know what you are and see no opportunity for mutual enlightenment.

I’m addressing you directly and your posts because that’s what forums are for.

You quibble about what is unimportant like the method of selection, but ignore that part about the gift of God being given at the laying on of hands.

No, the Early Church was not a Protestant style democracy. Titus was told to “teach and reprove with all Authority “.

The Apostles and disciples were guided by The Holy Spirit to lead, ordain, preach and so on.

“So the Twelve called a meeting of all the believers. They said, “We apostles should spend our time teaching the word of God, not running a food program. 3 And so, brothers, select seven men who are well respected and are full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will give them this responsibility. 4 Then we apostles can spend our time in prayer and teaching the word.”

5 Everyone liked this idea, and they chose the following: Stephen (a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit), Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas of Antioch (an earlier convert to the Jewish faith). 6 These seven were presented to the apostles, who prayed for them as they laid their hands on them.”

The community simply selected candidates of known and respected good character, men they trusted.
It was at the laying on of hands that these men were empowered.

 

[Ben1445]

Who carried on their ministry and preserved their writings? Elves?

Faithful men who teach others, not touch others.

 

[Cathode]

Faithful men who teach others, not touch others.

Catholic Bishops like Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Jerome, Athanasius, Cyril, Augustine and many more.

These are the ones that preserved the Scriptures from the Apostles and created the first Canon.
This was all done by Catholics.

 

[Ben1445]

For clarity, apostolic succession by laying on of hands by the description of @Cathode is reduced to nothing more than a hocus-pocus voodoo. It is effective and enduring regardless of the person who has hands laid on them?

That’s why Paul tells Timothy not to lay hands on anyone hastily, real Apostolic authority is being handed on.

Anyway, you can ignore pastors who are outside the Apostolic lineage, they don’t have authority, but not the Apostolic successors, that’s a huge mistake, they have real Authority through the laying on of hands from the Apostles.

So you’re an apostle if you have been through this ceremony, but it makes no difference what you do/are?
The flesh profits nothing. This is an absurd teaching. It is no more valid than the cannibalism taught in the doctrine of transubstantiation.

 

[Ben1445]

Catholic Bishops like Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Jerome, Athanasius, Cyril, Augustine and many more.

These are the ones that preserved the Scriptures from the Apostles and created the first Canon.
This was all done by Catholics.

Bishops are apostles?
How many Bishops do you have?
Do you have a 144,000 quota of unmarried apostles like the JW’s do too?

 

[Cathode]

For clarity, apostolic succession by laying on of hands by the description of @Cathode is reduced to nothing more than a hocus-pocus voodoo. It is effective and enduring regardless of the person who has hands laid on them?

You are in the de-supernaturalised form of Christianity, Protestants don’t impart the Apostolic gift of God through the laying on of hands.

The “gift of God” that was passed on from Paul to Timothy through the laying on of his hands and what Timothy passed on through the laying on of his hands, is not passed on in Bible alone Protestantism.
Protestantism rejected the Apostolic Priesthood, and founded their new human teaching of the priesthood of all believers.

Catholics hold to this biblical God gifted Sacrament passed down through the laying on of hands. Baptist’s have no such practice or lineage. It’s hocus-pocus voodoo to them, they don’t have the Apostolic sacramental gift of God passed on through the laying on of hands. It’s alien to them.
Paul’s words to Timothy in Scripture make no sense in Baptist teaching and practice, only Catholic teaching and practice.

So you’re an apostle if you have been through this ceremony, but it makes no difference what you do/are?
The flesh profits nothing. This is an absurd teaching. It is no more valid than the cannibalism taught in the doctrine of transubstantiation.

Again, you are in de-supernaturalised Christianity where no gift of God is passed on through the laying on of hands, nothing happens at baptism, nothing happens at the Eucharist.
Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine, fed thousands with little substance at hand, so that you would believe in His supernatural Sacraments.

Jesus changed the substance of water into wine by His Word, to show He had power to change substance.
He multiplied a handful of food to fed thousands by His Word, to show He had power to multiply His Flesh to feed and give life to the whole world.

The supernatural sacramental gifts of God’s Grace are obstinately rejected as voodoo by you, because you follow de-supernaturalised theology.
Zwingli was the founder Apostle of your de-supernaturalised theology, Zwingli was not an Apostle, he was a wolf preaching a different Gospel.

 

[Cathode]

Bishops are apostles?
How many Bishops do you have?
Do you have a 144,000 quota of unmarried apostles like the JW’s do too?

The Apostles Rule in their successors.

“Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Being under the governance of the Apostolic successors is being under the governance of the Apostles.

Bible alone Protestantism rejected the Apostolic governance and scattered into thousands of traditions of men, governing by subjective and conflicting human opinions of Scripture.