Ungodly Divisions

[Ben1445]

The Apostles Rule in their successors.

“Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Being under the governance of the Apostolic successors is being under the governance of the Apostles.

Bible alone Protestantism rejected the Apostolic governance and scattered into thousands of traditions of men, governing by subjective and conflicting human opinions of Scripture.

So you believe that the successor is possessed by an apostle?

 

[Van]

SNIP
You quibble about what is unimportant SNIP

Yet another attempt to change the subject to me, and run from the fact Elders are elected by the members, and then confirmed by leaders.

 

[Mikoo]

No, it’s right on point.

The highest authority in Protestantism is each man’s opinion,

And you made your own personal opinion that the rc denomination are who they claim to be.

Scripture simply exists to justify his opinion.

For rc's, Scripture is secondary to the man-made hierarchy of the men of the rc denomination.

It’s very different for Catholics, we hold to the singular objective interpretation of Scripture handed down from the Apostles.

Nope. Rc's opinion is that the rc denomination is who they claim to be. Like the mormons.

Our personal opinions are irrelevant.

Your personal opinion led you to believe that the rc denomination is who they claim to be.

 

[Van]

1 Timothy 4:14 NASB
Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

Timothy's gift was of course teaching and encouraging, bestowed by God through the leading of his indwelt Spirit, the laying on of hands is simply a symbolic gesture indicating their assessment through the leading of their indwelt Spirits, is that the person's calling and gifts are to his ministry here in this local church.

The old wives tale about this bestowing some sort of supernatural authority (Apostolic successors) is no where supported by scripture.

 

[Mikoo]

You are in the de-supernaturalised form of Christianity, Protestants don’t impart the Apostolic gift of God through the laying on of hands.

The “gift of God” that was passed on from Paul to Timothy through the laying on of his hands and what Timothy passed on through the laying on of his hands, is not passed on in Bible alone Protestantism.
Protestantism rejected the Apostolic Priesthood, and founded their new human teaching of the priesthood of all believers.

Catholics hold to this biblical God gifted Sacrament passed down through the laying on of hands. Baptist’s have no such practice or lineage. It’s hocus-pocus voodoo to them, they don’t have the Apostolic sacramental gift of God passed on through the laying on of hands. It’s alien to them.
Paul’s words to Timothy in Scripture make no sense in Baptist teaching and practice, only Catholic teaching and practice.



Again, you are in de-supernaturalised Christianity where no gift of God is passed on through the laying on of hands, nothing happens at baptism, nothing happens at the Eucharist.
Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine, fed thousands with little substance at hand, so that you would believe in His supernatural Sacraments.

Jesus changed the substance of water into wine by His Word, to show He had power to change substance.
He multiplied a handful of food to fed thousands by His Word, to show He had power to multiply His Flesh to feed and give life to the whole world.

The supernatural sacramental gifts of God’s Grace are obstinately rejected as voodoo by you, because you follow de-supernaturalised theology.
Zwingli was the founder Apostle of your de-supernaturalised theology, Zwingli was not an Apostle, he was a wolf preaching a different Gospel.

That's your personal opinion.

 

[Cathode]

So you believe that the successor is possessed by an apostle?

No, the Successor possesses the Apostolic gift of God through the laying on of hands by an Apostle.

Authority is passed on but also the Grace to use that Authority.

The Successors reflect and represent the Apostles who sent them.

So after the Apostles died, you have the Apostles ordained and authorised Shepherds to lead and guide the Church.

Apostle means “ one who is sent “.

Christ sent his disciples and the Apostles sent theirs. Timothy and Titus were perfect biblical examples of Apostolic successors.

“For this reason, I am reminding you to fan into flames the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands.”

Moses ordained Joshua through the laying on of hands. Semikhah

And Joshua was "filled with the spirit of wisdom". So a spiritual gift of God is imparted at the laying on of hands, of succession, blessing and Authority.

The 70 elders ordained by Moses passed on to their successors authority through the laying on of hands.
This succession of Semikhah/ the laying on of hands continued to the time of the second Temple.

Apostolic Succession takes place the same way as the Mosaic succession, through the laying on of hands.

 

[Ben1445]

No, the Successor possesses the Apostolic gift of God through the laying on of hands by an Apostle.

Authority is passed on but also the Grace to use that Authority.

The Successors reflect and represent the Apostles who sent them.

So after the Apostles died, you have the Apostles ordained and authorised Shepherds to lead and guide the Church.

Apostle means “ one who is sent “.

Christ sent his disciples and the Apostles sent theirs. Timothy and Titus were perfect biblical examples of Apostolic successors.

“For this reason, I am reminding you to fan into flames the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands.”

Moses ordained Joshua through the laying on of hands. Semikhah

And Joshua was "filled with the spirit of wisdom". So a spiritual gift of God is imparted at the laying on of hands, of succession, blessing and Authority.

The 70 elders ordained by Moses passed on to their successors authority through the laying on of hands.
This succession of Semikhah/ the laying on of hands continued to the time of the second Temple.

Apostolic Succession takes place the same way as the Mosaic succession, through the laying on of hands.

Mosaic succession??
Now we are just making stuff up (like someone else did with apostolic succession.)

Yes I looked it up. Yes, I found one result. No, I don’t find that to be a credible doctrine either. If anything, it emphasizes how far you are willing to stretch to defend a strange doctrine.

 

[JesusFan]

Catholic Bishops like Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Jerome, Athanasius, Cyril, Augustine and many more.

These are the ones that preserved the Scriptures from the Apostles and created the first Canon.
This was all done by Catholics.

Rome did not exist until the Papacy

 

[Cathode]

Mosaic succession??
Now we are just making stuff up (like someone else did with apostolic succession.)

Yes I looked it up. Yes, I found one result. No, I don’t find that to be a credible doctrine either. If anything, it emphasizes how far you are willing to stretch to defend a strange doctrine.

It’s in your Bible man, the Israelites transferred Authority through the semikhah, the laying on of hands.
Before Moses died he ordained Joshua his successor through the laying on of his hands.

The semikhah is called the chain of hands, because it was an unbroken succession of the laying on of hands conferred from Moses time.

"Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands upon him; and the Israelites heeded him, doing as God had commanded Moses."

Moses is called the first Rabbi of Israel, and teaching and preaching authority was passed on through the Semikhah the laying on of hands, Successor to Successor.
It conveys leadership, governance and teaching Authority.

Apostolic Authority is transferred the same way.

“For this reason, I am reminding you to fan into flames the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands.”

Paul confers the gift of God to Timothy “through the laying on of my hands”.

Is it just for Timothy? No, because Paul tells Timothy not to lay hands on any man hastily.
This means that it is a succession of the laying on of hands, the gift of God is transferred to Timothy’s successors and so on. As Jews they fully understood this was a succession and lineage of authority.

Just as a spiritual event occurred when Moses laid hands on Joshua, a spiritual event happened to Timothy when Paul laid hands on him. The Apostolic gift of God was conferred to Timothy.

Protestantism rejected this lineage of Apostolic ordinations, and took the bible as their only authority, but not having Apostolic successors to teach, they interpreted every conflicting wind of doctrine from the Bible, and scattered, each man pleasing himself with his own interpretations of Scripture.

Protestantism is outside the Apostolic lineage of successors.

 

[JesusFan]

And you made your own personal opinion that the rc denomination are who they claim to be.

For rc's, Scripture is secondary to the man-made hierarchy of the men of the rc denomination.

Nope. Rc's opinion is that the rc denomination is who they claim to be. Like the mormons.

Your personal opinion led you to believe that the rc denomination is who they claim to be.

The highest authority to we Baptists would be the sacred scriptures, and that would be the canonized 66 given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit

 

[Cathode]

The highest authority to we Baptists would be the sacred scriptures, and that would be the canonized 66 given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit

That’s right, you are textbook without the Apostolic teacher, sheep without Apostolic Shepherds.
Your flocks are scattered, thousands of conflicting interpretations and doctrines can be found in bible alonism, and all from the same bible.
The Bible is the source of your ever growing divisions.

 

[Cathode]

Rome did not exist until the Papacy

Rome was founded in 753 BC.

Can I suggest a course of reading for you?

 

[Van]

Bible students should know that to rightly divide the Word of God, you do not interpret the New Covenant using Old Covenant rules. The proper rule of interpretation is to interpret the Old Covenant by the New Covenant rules, as the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. You do use an understanding of Moses chose Elders to claim Paul had to use the same rules.

1 Timothy 4:14 NASB
Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
​

Timothy's gift was of course teaching and encouraging, bestowed by God through the leading of his indwelt Spirit, the laying on of hands is simply a symbolic gesture indicating their assessment through the leading of their indwelt Spirits, that the person's calling and gifts were appropriate to Timothy's ministry here in this local church.

The old wives tale about this bestowing some sort of supernatural authority (Apostolic successors) is no where supported by scripture.

 

[JesusFan]

Rome was founded in 753 BC.

Can I suggest a course of reading for you?

Roman Catholic Church proper was not existing until the Papacy The papacy arose as a distinct institution in the late Roman Empire, around the 4th and 5th centuries AD

 

[Ben1445]

It’s in your Bible man, the Israelites transferred Authority through the semikhah, the laying on of hands.
Before Moses died he ordained Joshua his successor through the laying on of his hands.

The semikhah is called the chain of hands, because it was an unbroken succession of the laying on of hands conferred from Moses time.

"Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands upon him; and the Israelites heeded him, doing as God had commanded Moses."

Moses is called the first Rabbi of Israel, and teaching and preaching authority was passed on through the Semikhah the laying on of hands, Successor to Successor.
It conveys leadership, governance and teaching Authority

Is this still happening?

 

[Ben1445]

It’s in your Bible man, the Israelites transferred Authority through the semikhah, the laying on of hands.
Before Moses died he ordained Joshua his successor through the laying on of his hands.

The semikhah is called the chain of hands, because it was an unbroken succession of the laying on of hands conferred from Moses time.

"Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands upon him; and the Israelites heeded him, doing as God had commanded Moses."

Moses is called the first Rabbi of Israel, and teaching and preaching authority was passed on through the Semikhah the laying on of hands, Successor to Successor.
It conveys leadership, governance and teaching Authority.

The Jews don’t teach this and it’s “their own practice” as you say.
If they do teach anything of it, succession has more to do with filling a position than laying on of hands.

 

[Cathode]

Bible students should know that to rightly divide the Word of God, you do not interpret the New Covenant using Old Covenant rules. The proper rule of interpretation is to interpret the Old Covenant by the New Covenant rules, as the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. You do use an understanding of Moses chose Elders to claim Paul had to use the same rules.

As Augustine said.

“The new is in the old concealed; the old is in the new revealed.”

There is a parallel relationship between old covenant and new covenant.

Not just in prophecy but also in typology.

The bronze serpent prefigured Christ on the Cross.

Jesus associated the Manna in the desert to His Flesh.

There are countless types in the old covenant that are revealed in the new covenant.

Peter associates the flood to baptism which now saves us.

Forget rightly dividing the word and start rightly uniting the word, by typological association, bring both Covenants and Testaments together.

 

[Cathode]

Is this still happening?

No. Not into the new Covenant.

It was a long established Israelite practice to hand down succession, and Christianity adopted it, Paul being a devout Pharisee, knew its origins back to Moses.

“As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, ‘Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.’ Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away” Acts 13: 2-3

 

[Cathode]

The Jews don’t teach this and it’s “their own practice” as you say.
If they do teach anything of it, succession has more to do with filling a position than laying on of hands.

The semikhah tradition of succession died out in the fourth century, according to the Jews.

But the semikhah was already practiced by the Christians from the Apostles, the way God transferred Authority by succession in the old covenant, is how Authority was transferred in the new Covenant.

“As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, ‘Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.’ Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away” Acts 13: 2-3

Now look closely.

“Moses spoke to God, saying, "Let God, Source of the breath of all flesh, appoint someone over the community who shall go out before them and come in before them, and who shall take them out and bring them in, so that Gods community may not be like sheep that have no shepherd." And God answered Moses, "Single out Joshua son of Nun, an inspired man, and lay your hand upon him.”

The formal appointment of Shepherds was done through the Semikhah/ laying on of hands succession.

God says “Single out Joshua son of Nun” in the Old Covenant.

“ the Holy Spirit said, ‘Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.’” In the New Covenant.

Then in both instances, hands were laid upon them.

See how beautiful God’s inspired Word is, can you see the symmetry between old and new Covenants.

So, Apostolic succession through the laying on of hands is spiritual effect, a gift of God transferred. So that the Church of God will not be like sheep without a Shepherd.

That is why we should only listen to Apostolic Successors in the lineage back to the Apostles.

 

[Cathode]

Timothy's gift was of course teaching and encouraging, bestowed by God through the leading of his indwelt Spirit, the laying on of hands is simply a symbolic gesture indicating their assessment through the leading of their indwelt Spirits, that the person's calling and gifts were appropriate to Timothy's ministry here in this local church.

The old wives tale about this bestowing some sort of supernatural authority (Apostolic successors) is no where supported by scripture.

Yes it is supported by Scripture.

The Semikhah laying on of hands caused the "spirit" in Moses to enter Joshua.

Which is what happened when Paul laid hands on Timothy.

The ordination of Shepherds happens the same way in both old and new Covenants.