NFL... The Calvinist View

[Dave G]

Or maybe you would rather explain why you deny this?

Is there something wrong with what I asked you for?

I would like to know from you, Dave G, why God commands all men everywhere to repent, but according to you they have no say in the matter.

I would like to know why it seems you're avoiding my question, Charlie.
If there's something wrong with how I'm reading Romans 9, I would very much appreciate you explaining how you see it.

The best way that I can think of, would be to "exegete" the passage line by line, giving me your understanding of each verse.
Call it a "commentary" if you will.

By doing this, it would give me a great deal of insight into how you're seeing the words for yourself...
and even if we do disagree, at least I will know how you see what Paul is telling us in the chapter.

 

[Charlie24]

Is there something wrong with what I asked you for?

I would like to know why it seems you're avoiding my question, Charlie.
If there's something wrong with how I'm reading Romans 9, I would very much appreciate you explaining how you see it.

The best way that I can think of, would be to "exegete" the passage line by line, giving me your understanding of each verse.
Call it a "commentary" if you will.

By doing this, it would give me a great deal of insight into how you're seeing the words for yourself...
and even if we do disagree, at least I will know how you see what Paul is telling us in the chapter.

LoL, Just for you Brother Dave G, I will start a new thread entitled Romans 9, but when I get the time, I would say by Mon. night.

Gonna be late for Church, catch you later.

 

[Dave G]

LoL, Just for you Brother Dave G, I will start a new thread entitled Romans 9, but when I get the time, I would say by Mon. night.

Gonna be late for Church, catch you later.

I look forward to it, Charlie.
Until Monday night then.

 

[John of Japan]

I don't ever enter these CAL/ARM discussions, but I have to tell my story. In college I was playing Rook with a Presbyterian roommate, and he said, "God predestined and foreordained each card we are playing." I replied, "What if He doesn't want to?" He became silent, and never answered.

 

[KenH]

In college I was playing Rook with a Presbyterian roommate, and he said, "God predestined and foreordained each card we are playing." I replied, "What if He doesn't want to?" He became silent, and never answered.

I think he should have answered you with this: "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself." (Psalm 50:21)

 

[Charlie24]

I look forward to it, Charlie.
Until Monday night then.

Yes, we both look forward to it.

There is something I would like for you to bear in mind before we begin our discussion on Rom. 9 tomorrow.

Did you know that God created Adam and Eve to live forever in the flesh?

Death was not pronounced on man, (with a forewarning) until after man disobeyed God.

Leading up to the flood, man became so rebellious against God and so sinful, that God said this in Gen. 6:3

"And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

Man lived for hundreds of years before God cut the average life span to 120 years in those days. Why?

God was tired of "striving" with rebellious man resisting Him, and cut his time on this earth, shortening mans time to come around to His way.

Why would God strive with rebellious man knowing that most would never accept His way?

He desires that all men be saved and come around to His way.

His striving with rebellious man is His universal act of Grace on display, Dave G.

His striving reflects His desire for no man to perish, leaving man with no excuse on judgement day.

 

[Dave G]

Did you know that God created Adam and Eve to live forever in the flesh?

Did He?
I wasn't aware of that.

My understanding is that He created them innocent but not immortal;
That it was spiritual death that was passed upon on all men because of Adam's sin ( Romans 5 ).

Death was not pronounced on man, (with a forewarning) until after man disobeyed God.

I agree.
Spiritual death, as I see Romans 5 describing, and the rest of the Scriptures emphasizing.

 

[Dave G]

Leading up to the flood, man became so rebellious against God and so sinful, that God said this in Gen. 6:3

"And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

Man lived for hundreds of years before God cut the average life span to 120 years in those days. Why?

God was tired of "striving" with rebellious man resisting Him, and cut his time on this earth, shortening mans time to come around to His way.

I tend to agree with you on part of this, as well.
But not in the highlighted part.

Why would God strive with rebellious man knowing that most would never accept His way?

To show His children the truth about how bad off we are, in the flesh, in our spirits and without Him and His ways.

 

[Dave G]

He desires that all men be saved and come around to His way.

His striving with rebellious man is His universal act of Grace on display, Dave G.

His striving reflects His desire for no man to perish, leaving man no excuse on judgement day.

I don't see it that way, Charlie, and as I've said above, what was written in His word is for His elect to see the truth of ( Romans 15:4 );
Everything was done to show them why they should be grateful for what He has done for them.

The reality of it all is that He rescued His elect...
From ourselves and from our wicked and stubborn condition ( John 3:18-20, Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:9-18 ), and gave us a new life and an eternal relationship with Him on a new earth, free of the very things that He is going to justly condemn the rest of mankind for.
All to provide a people for Himself that would forever praise Him for the glory of His grace and mercy to them.

Good evening to you.

 

[Charlie24]

I tend to agree with you on this, as well.

To show His children the truth about how bad off we are, in the flesh, in our spirits and without Him and His ways.

Could it be that God was and is expressing His "desire" for all men to be saved, through this universal act of Grace and mercy bestowed on man?

 

[Charlie24]

Could it be that God was and is expressing His "desire" for all men to be saved, through this universal act of Grace and mercy bestowed on man?

God is till striving with rebellious man all over this world as He did in the days of old, Dave G, desiring that they turn from their sin to Him.

Ezekiel 33:11

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[Charlie24]

Did He?
I wasn't aware of that.

My understanding is that He created them innocent but not immortal;
That it was spiritual death that was passed upon on all men because of Adam's sin ( Romans 5 ).

I agree.
Spiritual death, as I see Romans 5 describing, and the rest of the Scriptures emphasizing.

Both physical and spiritual death were passed upon man in the Garden.

In the end we will live forever in a body of flesh, the same body of flesh as Christ had after His resurrection.

So God's original plan has taken a 360 and has come back to the beginning, the way He desired it to be.

 

[kyredneck]

This is becoming of Calvinism, God picking His special and favorite.

We love him, because he first loved us. 1 Jn 4:19

Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Ro 5:5-10

even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), Eph 2

Your posts reeks with the flesh because of your hatred of His Sovereign Grace.

 

[Charlie24]

We love him, because he first loved us. 1 Jn 4:19

Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Ro 5:5-10

even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), Eph 2

Your posts reeks with flesh because of your utter hatred of His Sovereign Grace.

Or is it a hatred of false doctrine that has perverted God's love for the lost of this world?

 

[kyredneck]

.......God picking His special and favorite.

That's His Sovereign prerogative!

Ephesians Chapter 1

3​	Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:
4​	even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
5​	having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[KenH]

Your posts reeks with the flesh because of your hatred of His Sovereign Grace.

It's the same old-same old with these "flesh" men, @kyredneck. They teach that the God of the Bible is a terrible failure.

"This free will system of doctrine sets forth a god who is a wimp. He loves everybody (in spite of clear Bible teaching that God has set His love only on His elect people). The god of this theological system is trying to save everybody, but cannot because they will not let him. Therefore this god is a failure!

Most often, adherents to this Catholic system of theology deny vehemently that they teach that their god is a failure. However, occasionally one of their preachers will say in words or substance, "God has done everything He can do to save you. The rest is up to you". Or perhaps their preaching takes the slant that you must "let God" do this or that in your life. If you do not "let God" He cannot accomplish His purpose in your life, according to the god-is-a-failure theory.

As further proof, we quote one prominent "Baptist" (BBF) preacher of some years ago as representative of this Thomist/Arminian view. He wrote, ". . . hell is a ghastly monument to the failure of the Triune God to save the multitudes who are there . . . sinners go to hell because God Almighty couldn't save them! He did all He could. He failed." [Noel Smith, "Universal Atonement," Defender Magazine, Springfield, MO., U.S.A., December, 1956]." - excerpt from Is God a Failure?

 

[Charlie24]

That's His Sovereign prerogative!

Ephesians Chapter 1

3​	Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:
4​	even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
5​	having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

That's YOUR perversion of God!

 

[Charlie24]

It's the same old-same old with these "flesh" men, @kyredneck. They teach that the God of the Bible is a terrible failure.

"This free will system of doctrine sets forth a god who is a wimp. He loves everybody (in spite of clear Bible teaching that God has set His love only on His elect people). The god of this theological system is trying to save everybody, but cannot because they will not let him. Therefore this god is a failure!

Most often, adherents to this Catholic system of theology deny vehemently that they teach that their god is a failure. However, occasionally one of their preachers will say in words or substance, "God has done everything He can do to save you. The rest is up to you". Or perhaps their preaching takes the slant that you must "let God" do this or that in your life. If you do not "let God" He cannot accomplish His purpose in your life, according to the god-is-a-failure theory.

As further proof, we quote one prominent "Baptist" (BBF) preacher of some years ago as representative of this Thomist/Arminian view. He wrote, ". . . hell is a ghastly monument to the failure of the Triune God to save the multitudes who are there . . . sinners go to hell because God Almighty couldn't save them! He did all He could. He failed." [Noel Smith, "Universal Atonement," Defender Magazine, Springfield, MO., U.S.A., December, 1956]." - excerpt from Is God a Failure?

No Ken, that's not correct.

Everything God has said will come to pass, no doubt of that.

He just hasn't said what you claim, you are the echoing voice of a failed theory.

 

[Charlie24]

No Ken, that's not correct.

Everything God has said will come to pass, no doubt of that.

He just hasn't said what you claim, you are the echoing voice of a failed theory.

A failed theory that denies so many verses of Scripture it boggles the mind.

How can you not see why I oppose your theory?

 

[kyredneck]

That's YOUR perversion of God!

NO! IT'S YOUR PERVERSION OF GOD!

...in a nutshell Paul succinctly sums up the perversion of all you free-willer' wannabe 'Calvinist-slayers':

Romans Chapter 9

14​	What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbi

18​	So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19​	Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?

20​	Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?