Flaws of Calvinism

[Van]

1. Calvinism is Fatalistic.​

Calvinism promotes fatalism and resignation. In reality, Calvinists believe everything has been predestined, you were either saved or damned from eternity for eternity, and there is nothing you can do to alter that outcome for yourself or your loved ones.

2. Calvinists do not think Evangelism saves souls, as those to be saved were predestined before creation.
However, many Calvinists are deeply committed to sharing their faith, understanding it as a command from God.

3. Calvinism is Out of Touch With Modern Biblical Study
Calvinist theology is outdated, a relic of the "dark ages." It blames God for those who reject the gospel, since their choice was supposedly predestined, rather than looking to improve the efficacy of their evangelism. Calvinism is not based on what the Bible actually says, but on what can be read into vague or poorly translated passages of scripture.


But the true Doctrines of Grace, taken directly from what scripture actually says are these:

Limited Spiritual Ability - the Lost can understand Spiritual Milk, the Fundamentals of the Gospel, and thus can seek God and trust in Christ based on His revelation without supernatural "Enablement."

Conditional Election - God chooses individuals for salvation based on crediting their faith as righteousness, and then transferring the individual spiritually into Christ. This transfer is also referred to as being given to Christ, being called into His kingdom, being sanctified, being baptized into Christ, and believing into Christ, even His name.

General Offer of Reconciliation - Christ died for all people, those to be saved and those never to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:6 and 2 Peter 2:1

Resistible Grace - Many of the Lost are able to understand God's revelation, but are also able to reject it in whole or in part, as well as fully accept it. When and only if God credits the person's faith as righteousness, does God put the person into Christ.

Preservation of the Saved - Once a person has been transferred into Christ, they undergo spiritual rebirth, with their faith protected by the power of God, and then sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever, thus salvation cannot be lost.

 

[Salty]

Preservation of the Saved - Once a person has been transferred into Christ, they undergo spiritual rebirth, with their faith protected by the power of God, and then sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever, thus salvation cannot be lost.

Just to clarify - are you saying that a person who is truly born again - can loose his salvation?

 

[cjab]

Salvation cannot be lost.

IMO, the above cannot be indiscriminately applied in the temporal realm. It might be plausibly said of those with fair amounts of treasure stored up in heaven, but everyone is capable of making a fool of themselves, should they happen to let go of discipline for any reason.

The Old Testament record, the parables of the unmerciful servant, and others, e.g. of the 10 virgins at the wedding feast, etc., Galatians, the message sent to the various Revelation churches, and many other scriptural, verses, all suggest otherwise:

Mat 18:32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.
Mat 18:33 "Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’
Mat 18:34 "In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
Mat 18:35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

 

[JesusFan]

1. Calvinism is Fatalistic.​

Calvinism promotes fatalism and resignation. In reality, Calvinists believe everything has been predestined, you were either saved or damned from eternity for eternity, and there is nothing you can do to alter that outcome for yourself or your loved ones.

2. Calvinists do not think Evangelism saves souls, as those to be saved were predestined before creation.
However, many Calvinists are deeply committed to sharing their faith, understanding it as a command from God.

3. Calvinism is Out of Touch With Modern Biblical Study
Calvinist theology is outdated, a relic of the "dark ages." It blames God for those who reject the gospel, since their choice was supposedly predestined, rather than looking to improve the efficacy of their evangelism. Calvinism is not based on what the Bible actually says, but on what can be read into vague or poorly translated passages of scripture.


But the true Doctrines of Grace, taken directly from what scripture actually says are these:

Limited Spiritual Ability - the Lost can understand Spiritual Milk, the Fundamentals of the Gospel, and thus can seek God and trust in Christ based on His revelation without supernatural "Enablement."

Conditional Election - God chooses individuals for salvation based on crediting their faith as righteousness, and then transferring the individual spiritually into Christ. This transfer is also referred to as being given to Christ, being called into His kingdom, being sanctified, being baptized into Christ, and believing into Christ, even His name.

General Offer of Reconciliation - Christ died for all people, those to be saved and those never to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:6 and 2 Peter 2:1

Resistible Grace - Many of the Lost are able to understand God's revelation, but are also able to reject it in whole or in part, as well as fully accept it. When and only if God credits the person's faith as righteousness, does God put the person into Christ.

Preservation of the Saved - Once a person has been transferred into Christ, they undergo spiritual rebirth, with their faith protected by the power of God, and then sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever, thus salvation cannot be lost.

van, please do not tell us as Calvinists what we hold with and believe, as none of us hold to hardly anything you claim that we do!
1. Calvinism does not hold to fatalism, as we are still morally accountable to God for our decisions and choices that we make and do
All of us were born on the Highway to hell, and God predestinated Hs own unto salvation, placing them upon highway to heaven

2. God had ordained that His own elect shall be saved by the preaching/teaching of the gospel to them period
3. Would place the scholarship of Calvinists in regards to theology, commentaries, and bible language and research tools to any non Cals
And all of our doctrines of grace are found in the very word of God

 

[Van]

Just to clarify - are you saying that a person who is truly born again - can loose his salvation?

No

 

[Van]

IMO, the above cannot be indiscriminately applied in the temporal realm. It might be plausibly said of those with fair amounts of treasure stored up in heaven, but everyone is capable of making a fool of themselves, should they happen to let go of discipline for any reason.

The Old Testament record, the parables of the unmerciful servant, and others, e.g. of the 10 virgins at the wedding feast, etc., Galatians, the message sent to the various Revelation churches, and many other scriptural, verses, all suggest otherwise:

Mat 18:32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.
Mat 18:33 "Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’
Mat 18:34 "In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
Mat 18:35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

John 3:16 cannot be nullified, everyone believing into Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This absolutely precludes the loss of salvation.

As you may know, their are different ways the passage cited is understood by scholars. For example if you expect God to have mercy on you, you must come to Him with truth and integrity. If you think you can say you love your neighbor, but in truth do not, you will not fool God. If you think God will choose you for salvation, while you are expressing lip service faith, you have another think coming.

Parables illustrate spiritual concepts. In your Matthew 18 Parable, the errant servant thought he should receive mercy, but was unwilling to give mercy to others. This failure can be compared to entry into the kingdom, if you do not come before our Lord with truth and integrity, you will not obtain credit for your phony faith.

One stumbling block to understanding is confusion on timing. Here the servant fooled his master, so received the master's mercy, and then when the true heart of the servant was discovered, the servant lost mercy. Thus some reach the conclusion this supports loss of salvation. But that part of the parable does not illustrate the spiritual concept. God knows our thoughts and attitudes, He knows our hearts. So He is never fooled, He does not grant mercy, then take it back.

 

[Van]

van, please do not tell us as Calvinists what we hold with and believe, as none of us hold to hardly anything you claim that we do!
1. Calvinism does not hold to fatalism, as we are still morally accountable to God for our decisions and choices that we make and do
All of us were born on the Highway to hell, and God predestinated Hs own unto salvation, placing them upon highway to heaven

2. God had ordained that His own elect shall be saved by the preaching/teaching of the gospel to them period
3. Would place the scholarship of Calvinists in regards to theology, commentaries, and bible language and research tools to any non Cals
And all of our doctrines of grace are found in the very word of God

Folks, note that the false doctrines of Calvinism are defended almost exclusively by logical fallacies. Here the defense uses "Personal Incredulity" the old "that published doctrine of Calvinism" is not what any Calvinist believes" dodge. Note that the defense falls into one of three categories,

1) Misrepresentation - the view as stated is ignored, and a strawman misrepresentation is suggested and shown to be invalid.

2) Personal Incredulity - the view as stated is claimed to be incoherent, confused, or otherwise not understandable.

3) Against the Person - the subject is changed to how the view is presented or the character flaws of the presenter, rather than addressing the specific doctrine as stated.​

In summary, "taint so." You do not even need to crack open your bible to post such responses.

 

[Dave G]

Calvinism promotes fatalism and resignation

Perhaps in some,
But the teaching and preaching that God has chosen a people for Himself before the world began, sent His Son to die for those who would otherwise choose to stay in their sin and be at ease in their love of it, and shall persevere in their faith to the end...

Is something that gives me great comfort.

Because I know, in the details of what I see in the Scriptures, God's personal love for me and His willingness to not see even one of His elect perish, but that they should come to repentance.

That those same covenant people who were purchased by His Son's blood, are also given an inheritance to come;
and will be forever with Him on the new earth and in their city, which will come down from Heaven to earth after all is said and done.

 

[Dave G]

In reality, Calvinists believe everything has been predestined

Some do, some do not. Personally speaking, I do not.
Neither do I identify with John Calvin as a product of his or his followers' teachings, like some do.

you were either saved or damned from eternity for eternity, and there is nothing you can do to alter that outcome for yourself or your loved ones.

That's what I see from the Scriptures is the reality of things;
But that the believer can take comfort in knowing they are not of the reprobate, but rather the opposite.

Calvinists do not think Evangelism saves souls, as those to be saved were predestined before creation.

On this I agree with "Calvinists", in that I do not believe that the purpose of evangelism is to save souls;
I believe that the purpose of any preaching of God's words is to either gather God's elect to Himself, spiritually, and to educate them on how and why they are His elect... and why they can trust Him to deliver them from all evil.

 

[Dave G]

Calvinism is Out of Touch With Modern Biblical Study

To me, being "out of touch with modern Biblical study" has no bearing upon what I see and understand from God's word;
Neither has it ever influenced me ( or even brought shame to me ) for essentially being outnumbered by men or groups of men.

But the true Doctrines of Grace, taken directly from what scripture actually says are these:

Limited Spiritual Ability - the Lost can understand Spiritual Milk, the Fundamentals of the Gospel, and thus can seek God and trust in Christ based on His revelation without supernatural "Enablement."

Conditional Election - God chooses individuals for salvation based on crediting their faith as righteousness, and then transferring the individual spiritually into Christ. This transfer is also referred to as being given to Christ, being called into His kingdom, being sanctified, being baptized into Christ, and believing into Christ, even His name.

General Offer of Reconciliation - Christ died for all people, those to be saved and those never to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:6 and 2 Peter 2:1

Resistible Grace - Many of the Lost are able to understand God's revelation, but are also able to reject it in whole or in part, as well as fully accept it. When and only if God credits the person's faith as righteousness, does God put the person into Christ.

Preservation of the Saved - Once a person has been transferred into Christ, they undergo spiritual rebirth, with their faith protected by the power of God, and then sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever, thus salvation cannot be lost.

From my perspective, it is and always will be your own personal prerogative to read and understand the Scriptures for yourself, and to declare what you believe that it says to anyone who will listen.

Whether or not anyone is correct in their views, will be judged before the Lord.



May God bless you.

 

[Charlie24]

1. Calvinism is Fatalistic.​

Calvinism promotes fatalism and resignation. In reality, Calvinists believe everything has been predestined, you were either saved or damned from eternity for eternity, and there is nothing you can do to alter that outcome for yourself or your loved ones.

2. Calvinists do not think Evangelism saves souls, as those to be saved were predestined before creation.
However, many Calvinists are deeply committed to sharing their faith, understanding it as a command from God.

3. Calvinism is Out of Touch With Modern Biblical Study
Calvinist theology is outdated, a relic of the "dark ages." It blames God for those who reject the gospel, since their choice was supposedly predestined, rather than looking to improve the efficacy of their evangelism. Calvinism is not based on what the Bible actually says, but on what can be read into vague or poorly translated passages of scripture.


But the true Doctrines of Grace, taken directly from what scripture actually says are these:

Limited Spiritual Ability - the Lost can understand Spiritual Milk, the Fundamentals of the Gospel, and thus can seek God and trust in Christ based on His revelation without supernatural "Enablement."

Conditional Election - God chooses individuals for salvation based on crediting their faith as righteousness, and then transferring the individual spiritually into Christ. This transfer is also referred to as being given to Christ, being called into His kingdom, being sanctified, being baptized into Christ, and believing into Christ, even His name.

General Offer of Reconciliation - Christ died for all people, those to be saved and those never to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:6 and 2 Peter 2:1

Resistible Grace - Many of the Lost are able to understand God's revelation, but are also able to reject it in whole or in part, as well as fully accept it. When and only if God credits the person's faith as righteousness, does God put the person into Christ.

Preservation of the Saved - Once a person has been transferred into Christ, they undergo spiritual rebirth, with their faith protected by the power of God, and then sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever, thus salvation cannot be lost.

How do you interpret this, Van. Just wondering, no need to burn the down the barn.

Heb. 3:14-15

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."

 

[Marooncat79]

Paul Anticipates—and Answers—Objections to Election in Romans 9

theaquilareport.com

 

[Marooncat79]

Regeneration Precedes Faith: Six Passages in Paul That Prove Faith is a Gift

theaquilareport.com

 

[Marooncat79]

Monergism in Acts(ion): Seven Texts That Affirm The Priority of God’s Grace

. . . I am sending you, to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who ar…

davidschrock.com

 

[Marooncat79]

Did Jesus Die for Everybody?

Did Jesus die for everybody? This question seems rather simple on the surface, but if you peel back a layer of Scripture you’ll find it’s a pretty complex question. Theologians debate, friends argu…

theology-and-life.com

 

[Van]

How do you interpret this, Van. Just wondering, no need to burn the down the barn.

Heb. 3:14-15

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."

I think you might mean, to burn down the barn is to ignore any part of God's inspired word. I believe I never disregard any part of His word.

Let us discuss Hebrews 3:14-15 concerning the subject of loss of salvation, if that was your point? I assume some interpretation of these verses holds that they support loss of salvation, such as salvation is contingent on our holding firm until the end? That of course is not the interpretation of main stream baptists. We see the opposite, that since we are born anew, we will hold firm until the end.

But let us look a little deeper into the passage.

"For we are made" does not capture the Greek verb tense (Perfect) which is translated "have become" by many modern translations including NASB, NET, ESV, and NKIV. So rather than indicating a possible future action, we are made if, the verse is better understood as "we have become partakers since we hold fast until the end. Holding fast does not provide salvation, holding fast proves salvation.

Next, is it possible for a saved person to harden their heart. Nope! So the use of the reference to the failure to hold fast, from Psalm 95:7 is simply an admonishment not to quench the Spirit, and to stay on His paths of righteousness. Why cannot a saved person destroy their faith in and love of Christ by lawlessness? 1 Peter 1:3-5. Our faith is protected by the power of God such that we are kept such that we will receive our inheritance. The Old Covenant provided no such spiritual transformation as being born anew as a child of God, indwelt FOREVER with our Helper!

 

[Van]

Perhaps in some,
But the teaching and preaching that God has chosen a people for Himself before the world began, sent His Son to die for those who would otherwise choose to stay in their sin and be at ease in their love of it, and shall persevere in their faith to the end...

Is something that gives me great comfort.

Because I know, in the details of what I see in the Scriptures, God's personal love for me and His willingness to not see even one of His elect perish, but that they should come to repentance.

That those same covenant people who were purchased by His Son's blood, are also given an inheritance to come;
and will be forever with Him on the new earth and in their city, which will come down from Heaven to earth after all is said and done.

Here the defense of Calvinism is based on what someone sees in unreferenced scripture. The issue is not what a person claims to believe, but on what God's message actually is!

 

[Charlie24]

I think you might mean, to burn down the barn is to ignore any part of God's inspired word. I believe I never disregard any part of His word.

Let us discuss Hebrews 3:14-15 concerning the subject of loss of salvation, if that was your point? I assume some interpretation of these verses holds that they support loss of salvation, such as salvation is contingent on our holding firm until the end? That of course is not the interpretation of main stream baptists. We see the opposite, that since we are born anew, we will hold firm until the end.

But let us look a little deeper into the passage.

"For we are made" does not capture the Greek verb tense (Perfect) which is translated "have become" by many modern translations including NASB, NET, ESV, and NKIV. So rather than indicating a possible future action, we are made if, the verse is better understood as "we have become partakers since we hold fast until the end. Holding fast does not provide salvation, holding fast proves salvation.

Next, is it possible for a saved person to harden their heart. Nope! So the use of the reference to the failure to hold fast, from Psalm 95:7 is simply an admonishment not to quench the Spirit, and to stay on His paths of righteousness. Why cannot a saved person destroy their faith in and love of Christ by lawlessness? 1 Peter 1:3-5. Our faith is protected by the power of God such that we are kept such that we will receive our inheritance. The Old Covenant provided no such spiritual transformation as being born anew as a child of God, indwelt FOREVER with our Helper!

No, wasn't referring to "burn the barn down" as ignoring God's Word, was referring to our normal arguments when we get together. We've had some barn burners haven't we?

Anyway, I totally disagree, and I'm sure you already knew that.

Allow me to ask this question, and thank you, Van, for explaining your position.

In Heb. 6:4-6, How is it possible that a person who was "made partaker of the Holy Spirit" if he should fall away (stop believing) that's it's impossible for him to be renewed unto repentance, if as you say man cannot lose his salvation?

 

[Zaatar71]

van, please do not tell us as Calvinists what we hold with and believe, as none of us hold to hardly anything you claim that we do!
1. Calvinism does not hold to fatalism, as we are still morally accountable to God for our decisions and choices that we make and do
All of us were born on the Highway to hell, and God predestinated Hs own unto salvation, placing them upon highway to heaven

2. God had ordained that His own elect shall be saved by the preaching/teaching of the gospel to them period
3. Would place the scholarship of Calvinists in regards to theology, commentaries, and bible language and research tools to any non Cals
And all of our doctrines of grace are found in the very word of God

Well said JF, You noticed the poster has offered a complete caricature of the position! Thanks for this solid observation.

 

[Van]

Does "open their eyes" refer to some sort of supernatural enablement as Calvinism claim, or is the actual idea to explain something in an understandable way? Same idea is presented by the phrase "opened her heart." Calvinism simply reads into vague phrases the invented doctrines of Calvinism.

Does Acts 11:18 mean "causes repentance?" Nope, it means "allows" repentance. If God causes a person's heart to be hardened, He has disallowed repentance and faith. Judas was disallowed because he was chosen to be "the Betrayer."

Does Acts 13:48 say people were predestined to believe? Nope. Those that took Paul's direction to eternal life, i.e. his gospel presentation, believed. Once again, Calvinism reads into the text what is not said or even suggested. The context points to the receptiveness of the hearers of the gospel.

When God says "I have many people" He may be referring to believers who would not harm Paul, or He may be referring to people open to God's word, i.e. the fields white for harvest, that need to hear the gospel. But what the phrase does not mean is I have many people I have already chosen for salvation in the city. That view is simply read into the text. There is no actual support for Calvinism anywhere in scripture.