Bible: To what extent does ignorance equate to innocence?

[Dave...]

" for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; "( Romans 3:23 ). <------That includes infants.

All have sinned and fallen short of God's righteous standards. Yes.

" For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." ( Ecclesiastes 7:20 ).

" Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." ( Psalms 58:1-3 ). <--- Here the Lord gives us a glimpse of what mankind is really like, in our hearts and immediately following our birth.

Seem harsh?
Remember Dave, this is God speaking, not men.

The natural path of our sinful nature. Obviously, a point is being made here. Babies don't speak coming straight out of the womb. That would be funny though: "Dang, what the..." "It's cold out here!" "It's the doctors fault" <---- The lies.

If you hold to reading these passages literally without regard for the context or the point being made, then you must also conclude that Ecclesiastes 7:20 above only applies to men, not to women, children, or infants.

 

[Dave...]

No, my friend, we should not take just the last half of the passage at what appears to be face value, because the Lord has much more to tell us about our supposed innocence than just what appears to be in the above.

Also, are you aware of why I bolded in red what I did?
Because I see the Lord telling us why He came, and He does so in a not-so-straightforward manner...
To me, He means that His reason for coming to Israel was for judgement;
So that those who do not "see" Him may indeed "see" Him ( His elect, both Jew and Gentile ), and that those who claim to see Him ( those of national Israel, not elect but still responsible ), may be made blind.

It's a pronouncement of judgement upon disobedient Israel, and how their religious leaders all claimed to see and know God...
But in reality were blinded to their own ignorance of Him.
They thought they were God's people by reason of their physical lineage from Abraham and their supposed obedience to the Law of Moses...
Instead of being God's spiritual children by His own choice and His granting them repentance and the new birth ( Psalm 65:4 ).

In the end, Israel as a nation is responsible for all of their disobedient history towards God,
Even though few of them, a remnant, would be saved by God.
Why?
Because they still promised God that they would follow the precepts of the Law at Mount Sinai, and they then proceeded to willfully disobey all of it in the centuries to come.


Thus, even though He makes both vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, loves Jacob and hates Esau, God holds the nation responsible...
and He does so knowing their hearts and minds.

I think of it as willful blindness confirmed. Kind of like hypocritical judgment. We admit that we know better by judging others and can no longer claim ignorance.

 

[Dave G]

There are those that have done wrong in ignorance. Consider Paul through this lens:

Point taken.
What I meant to convey, was that the Bible does not tells us anywhere that any man or woman is innocent of sin.

 

[Dave G]

The natural path of our sinful nature. Obviously, a point is being made here. Babies don't speak coming straight out of the womb. That would be funny though: "Dang, what the..." "It's cold out here!" "It's the doctors fault" <---- The lies.

Sure they do...
As soon as they get old enough to cry ( which is immediately ), they find out that by crying, they can get what they want from their mother.

In other words, once they learn that mom will come running when they cry ( "speak" ) about having a dirty diaper ( for example ), they then begin to cry or fuss about being lonely, or being hungry, or because they inherently know that if they do it enough and at the right times, mom will give them the attention that they want, when they want it.
So, they show that they are estranged ( from God ) from the womb ( starting at that time ) as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Later on, we see kids in grocery stores at the age of, say, three... whining and making a scene ( lying ) because they can't have that piece of candy they want that's next to them in the checkout line;

Again, "speaking lies" in that they are pitching a fit and making Mom ( or Dad ) believe that something seriously wrong is amiss...
When in reality, all the fuss is about wanting something that they cannot have and that their parent already told them "no" about.


Kids learn to lie very early, Dave...
It's in their nature.

 

[Dave G]

If you hold to reading these passages literally without regard for the context or the point being made, then you must also conclude that Ecclesiastes 7:20 above only applies to men, not to women, children, or infants.

I do hold to reading most of them literally.

But I also know that the word "man" there in Ecclesiastes means "mankind".
"Man" in most places of the Bible means, " hu-man", "wo-man", etc.

I believe the term is "federal headship", when we were all "in Adam" when he and Eve sinned in the Garden.
There, we see that God created "man", both male and female, in the image of God.

 

[Dave G]

@Dave...

Regarding this "age of accountabilty" thing that I ( yes, I myself ) was also taught growing up in independent Baptist churches...
Think of it like this:

What I was taught to believe was that the Lord doesn't begin reckon a person's sins to them before a certain age;
That if they died, they automatically went to be with Him.
So, what they were saying the whole time was something that I later found out was contrary to the Scriptures which tell us that ALL have sinned;
That there is not a just person upon the earth that does good and sins not...

That this isn't true:

" What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 and the way of peace have they not known:
18 there is no fear of God before their eyes." ( Romans 3:9-18 ). <--- This is from God's perspective of Him sitting on His throne and seeing our hearts and minds... from a position of holiness and not our "we sin because it's normal for us to sin" attitude that we've come to accept over the centuries.

Innocence?
My friend, people sin out of ignorance, I'll grant;
They are "innocent" of committing certain sins, yes.

But the Lord views every man and woman as a sinner.
None are innocent of being a sinner in our natures.

In fact, it's so bad, we ( as a race ) do it without even thinking about it most of the time.

 

[Dave...]

Rom. 9:11 is one very misunderstood Bible statement. People forget the Omni- statements about Yehovah's nature. Yehovah is not contained in our Time/Space Continuum and knows the beginning. Before they were born Yehovah knew the totals of both their lives.

Hey Bill

Doesn't Romans 9:11 have more to do with lineage and blessing as opposed to salvation?

Dave

 

[Dave...]

Because of Adam's sin, every human being is guilty of sin. Adam was the federal head of all of the human race. Christ Jesus is the federal head of all of those God chose before the world began, God's elect.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Hey Ken

What if we understood the order here in Romans 5:12 to be like this. (1) is the cause of (2).

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as (1) by one man sin entered into the world, (2) and death by sin; ------and so------ (2) death passed upon all men, (1)for that all have sinned.

While the guilt may be inevitable, does it apply before sin happens? I think that the physical death does pass down at birth. But were talking spiritual. What we inherited from Adam was a separation from God, Who is the source of all that is good. Is sins inevitability do to a separation from God enough to claim guilt, or does it need to happen first?

We understand that we enter that grace of Romans 5:17 by faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

What say you?

 

[Dave...]

The way I see it, Dave, is that both the Pharisees and Paul acted in unbelief, but Paul's unbelief was proven to be an innocent unbelief, and the Pharisees a willful unbelief.

The Pharisees stood before Christ and rejected Him refusing to see the light, but when Paul stood before Christ on the road to Damascus He swallowed his pride and believed the light.

If the Pharisees has done as Paul admitting he was wrong, that blindness would not have remained in them.

I agree.

 

[KenH]

Hey Ken

What if we understood the order here in Romans 5:12 to be like this. (1) is the cause of (2).

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as (1) by one man sin entered into the world, (2) and death by sin; ------and so------ (2) death passed upon all men, (1)for that all have sinned.

While the guilt may be inevitable, does it apply before sin happens? I think that the physical death does pass down at birth. But were talking spiritual. What we inherited from Adam was a separation from God, Who is the source of all that is good. Is sins inevitability do to a separation from God enough to claim guilt, or does it need to happen first?

We understand that we enter that grace of Romans 5:17 by faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

What say you?

Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

 

[Dave G]

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:" ( Ephesians 2:8 )

For by grace are we saved through faith...
and that not from ourselves.

It is the gift of God.

See what the Lord did there, Dave?
We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ...
...and through Jesus Christ, we also have access by faith into the grace that we stand in.

Who is the Author and Finisher of faith ( Hebrews 12:2 )?
Jesus Christ.

Who gets all the glory for saving us, and for even providing the faith that we have access to God's grace by?
Jesus Christ.

 

[Dave...]

Sure they do...
As soon as they get old enough to cry ( which is immediately ), they find out that by crying, they can get what they want from their mother.

In other words, once they learn that mom will come running when they cry ( "speak" ) about having a dirty diaper ( for example ), they then begin to cry or fuss about being lonely, or being hungry, or because they inherently know that if they do it enough and at the right times, mom will give them the attention that they want, when they want it.
So, they show that they are estranged ( from God ) from the womb ( starting at that time ) as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Later on, we see kids in grocery stores at the age of, say, three... whining and making a scene ( lying ) because they can't have that piece of candy they want that's next to them in the checkout line;

Again, "speaking lies" in that they are pitching a fit and making Mom ( or Dad ) believe that something seriously wrong is amiss...
When in reality, all the fuss is about wanting something that they cannot have and that their parent already told them "no" about.


Kids learn to lie very early, Dave...
It's in their nature.

Dave, this is for @Alan Dale Gross too.

Babies cry because they are completely dependent on their mothers. If you cry out to God in prayer, literally crying, is that sin? Is it selfish? And the children are being weened off of those habits in their formative years, gently. You'll find parallels to that with your walk in Christ, as we start with the fear of God, that is, the fear of chastisement to obey His commandments. Sounds mature, right? No, that part comes down the road when we are weened off of those things and learn to love, seeing the love that motivated those same commandments, thus, matured, or perfected, casting away all fear.

Can you honestly look at a baby and only see an evil person, continually thinking and doing evil, in need of repenting from their wicked rebellious ways?



LOL Repent, ye evil one!

This is what Jesus said about these evil, unrepentant little ones.

Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them to Him and said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is (belongs) the kingdom of God.

Matt. 18: and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:" Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

Mark 9:37 "Whoever receives one of these little children in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me, receives not Me but Him who sent Me."


How is it that children, never specified as any particular group of children, just children, many of whom cannot even come to faith, are in heaven?

 

[Dave...]

I do hold to reading most of them literally.

But I also know that the word "man" there in Ecclesiastes means "mankind".
"Man" in most places of the Bible means, " hu-man", "wo-man", etc.

I believe the term is "federal headship", when we were all "in Adam" when he and Eve sinned in the Garden.
There, we see that God created "man", both male and female, in the image of God.

I was just making a point, that's all. Again, Ecclesiastes should be understood in the context of justification just like Romans 3. Not one man can claim to be righteous without Christ Jesus, for if Abraham (Not righteous--no not one) was saved by works, he has something to boast about.

Psalm 58:3,7 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies....Break their teeth in their mouth, O God! Break out the fangs of the young lions, O Lord!

Babies have teeth? Children do. Wait, which one is he taking about? He's obviously exaggerating to make a point. A hyperbole and metaphor to stress the point of what man is at birth (flesh) and more importantly, what he naturally becomes in the flesh as in matures (evil, sinner).

Interesting, though, and I would like your opinion on this. In Romans 2, the Gentiles, who have never heard the Gospel, or even know about the Law, or the written Word, by nature, again *By Nature*, (that's that same sinful nature that is incapable of doing good, or even thinking good, or even understanding the Gospel. That's the nature that is only evil continually, in thought, and in act), by that same nature they not only have God's Law written on their hearts, but they obey it, being a law unto themselves.

Romans 2 14-15 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

How do you explain a sinful nature doing these things that are supposed to impossible? I'm not claiming that they are saved, but they are doing good. How do you explain this?

Dave

 

[Dave...]

Innocence?
They are "innocent" of committing certain sins, yes.

But the Lord views every man and woman as a sinner.
None are innocent of being a sinner in our natures.

That was my point. I only asked to what extent that innocence can go. I never intended to try to go to the point of justifying a man, but a child, an infant is in play.

James 1: 14-15 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Do you think that passage contradicts what Jesus said here?

Matt. 5:27-28 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I think that if we look carefully, they are both saying the same thing. What say you?

 

[Dave...]

Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

Hey Ken

Yes, God is sovereign, I agree. My question to you still stands: Does that mean that they need to actually reach that point of a first sin, before they are guilty?

Jesus is not our Head until we are in Christ. And to be in Christ, to receive that grace, it comes by faith. So we are all in Adam until some come to faith.

 

[Dave...]

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:" ( Ephesians 2:8 )

For by grace are we saved through faith...
and that not from ourselves.

It is the gift of God.

See what the Lord did there, Dave?
We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ...
...and through Jesus Christ, we also have access by faith into the grace that we stand in.

Who is the Author and Finisher of faith ( Hebrews 12:2 )?
Jesus Christ.

Who gets all the glory for saving us, and for even providing the faith that we have access to God's grace by?
Jesus Christ.

Dave

Grace is what is the gift. It comes by faith. That's what Ephesians 2:8 is saying. It's saying the same thing as Romans 5:1. The life and the grace are simultaneous. Jesus authored that life (Acts 3:15), and that life is called faith in Ephesians. Ephesians is speaking about the ongoing faith, being perfected, having begun in the Spirit (Galatians 3:2-3). You'll see that lines right up with Romans 1. No Spirit, no life (Romans 8:9-11). All as a result of faith. The gift of grace begins when the life begins, when we receive the indwelling as a result of faith.

 

[Dave G]

Dave

Grace is what is the gift. It comes by faith. That's what Ephesians 2:8 is saying. It's saying the same thing as Romans 5:1. The life and the grace are simultaneous. Jesus authored that life (Acts 3:15), and that life is called faith in Ephesians. Ephesians is speaking about the ongoing faith, being perfected, having begun in the Spirit (Galatians 3:2-3). You'll see that lines right up with Romans 1. No Spirit, no life (Romans 8:9-11). All as a result of faith. The gift of grace begins when the life begins, when we receive the indwelling as a result of faith.

I'm sorry, Dave, but I don't understand it that way when I read it for myself.
That's why I'll have to disagree.

I also understand where many of the questions you're asking in the above posts are coming from.
But after reading your replies, one thing has become very apparent to me...
It seems to me as if you're not really believing some of what is written;

That even babies are fallen sinners, and they evidence this fact the moment that they are born.
Not a single human being can lay claim to innocence the way that Adam and Eve could, before they sinned and passed that tendency down to us.

In addition, just because Abraham was credited with righteousness because of his faith in Romans 4, doesn't mean the road stops there..
There's more to it than I believe you're seeing at the moment, and there's a reason one person believes and another does not.
It has to do with the power of God and Him loving a people and giving them to His Son to save, before the world began.


That said,
It's time to take my leave of the thread, as you and I are simply not reading things with the same understanding of the text.
Perhaps someday that will change.

I wish you well, sir, and may the Lord bless you in many ways.

 

[KenH]

Yes, God is sovereign, I agree. My question to you still stands: Does that mean that they need to actually reach that point of a first sin, before they are guilty?

The status of God's elect, as well as those reprobated, was set before the world began. What changes for God's elect is that their state on this earth, when they hear the gospel of the finished work of Christ, and are regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and granted the gift of faith in the Christ's finished work and His perfect righteousness, and the gift of repentance of their dead works, changes from being dead in their sins, like the reprobates, to being alive in Christ.

 

[Dave...]

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:" ( Ephesians 2:8 )

Think of it like this, Dave.

If you agree that there is some innocence that results from ignorance, then it stands to reason that a complete ignorance is a complete innocence. Unless you want to prove that the nature itself condemns us. As far as I know, the only places in Scripture that actually state the words 'sinful nature' together is a couple and I believe that they may be mistranslations. What we inherited from Adam was simply a separation from God. That means, apart from the Holy Spirit we cannot do anything good by righteous standards. One judicially hardened, the other not.

1:19-21 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

2:14-15 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

Think of the faith in Ephesians as James, not Paul. The ongoing, that's the faith that Jesus Authors and Finishes. He who has began a good work in you will finish it. It's all of the Holy Spirit, a gift from God. As I've stated many times, the typical reformed view seeks to stretch that context to before the initial faith. Giving the life/grace that results from being in Christ before the initial faith. But Scripture doesn't support that idea. Being in Christ and born again is a result of the indwelling, which is always the result of the initial faith (Paul). The ongoing faith (James) is the gift from grace, where the Spirit of Christ can bear fruit for us. No need to reply.

Dave