Romans 9

[Ben1445]

"Mat 7:22-23; Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not Prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils? and in Thy Name done many wonderful works? And then Will I Profess unto them, I Never Knew you: Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.

This is an amazing passage of Scripture!

How can people who don’t seek God and have no ability to understand the Bible think that they have not only found God but also think that they have been serving Him?
Incredible!
The nerve of the non Calvinist elect to stand in front of God and fib again, knowing that they don’t seek God and didn’t even understand Scripture. Surely they will know it standing in front of God. Obviously they couldn’t be confused. They will know that they were seeking a false god.

Absolutely stunning!
Or could it be that none seek God and that is spoken to their shame because they should be. Because God has formed the world so that they may feel after Him and per chance, find Him though groping in the darkness?

 

[Dave G]

How can people who don’t seek God and have no ability to understand the Bible think that they have not only found God but also think that they have been serving Him?

Yes, Ben, it amazes me as well...
It even sickens me to the pit of my stomach at times.

How a group like the Pharisees, for example, will stand before the Lord... thinking that they not only know Him but profess to be His people and to be instructors of those who do not know Him, will instead be told that He "never knew them".

It will not only shock them to their very core, but fill them with dread and the realization that they were never His to begin with.

The nerve of the non Calvinist elect to stand in front of God and fib again, knowing that they don’t seek God and didn’t even understand Scripture. Surely they will know it standing in front of God. Obviously they couldn’t be confused. They will know that they were seeking a false god.

Setting John Calvin's and John Wesley's teachings aside,
Knowing that there are indeed people out there who aren't seeking God from a changed heart, and who are not interested in having an eternal relationship with Him and His Son because they know Him and actually love Him from that same heart ( and a full understanding of what the Lord has done for them in all the details ), is indeed something that the Scriptures speak about.

That the Bible tells us of those who "seek God" for the benefits of being a Christian ( or seek a god of their own making, sometimes developed from pieces of God's word, which is another thing that the Pharisees did ), instead of because they really were and are His people that He loves, is a reality that the Lord has spoken of in places like Matthew 13; When He declared the plain truth of the parables of the sower and of the tares to His disciples...

Who had point-blank asked Him why He spoke to the Jews in parables:

" Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."

The reality of false teachers and false brethren is something that Paul warned the churches about, and that the Lord tells us that Satan is responsible for ( Matthew 13:38 ).

 

[Dave G]

Or could it be that none seek God and that is spoken to their shame because they should be.

Absolutely, and He will hold all of those outside of Christ's body, accountable for what truth they were given by Him ( and willfully and stubbornly rejected ) at the Judgement.

Because God has formed the world so that they may feel after Him and per chance, find Him though groping in the darkness?

Exactly.
You see, Ben, election and predestination run parallel to man's responsibility to believe and to seek God...
But even though men are responsible for seeking God, He tells us that we do not and will not ( Romans 3:9-18 ).
That's why that responsibility stops right at the threshold of God's purposes according to election...
Because we are guilty of not seeking Him, even though we should be.

So, the reason that Paul made appeal to those things at Mars' Hill ( Acts 17:22-34 ), was because that is how Christ crucified for sinners is to be preached...

Not leading off with "God loves everyone", but knowing that whomever does believe God's word on the matter, is loved by God and is responding to that "call" out of a changed heart and mind that has been made willing to receive His words and to believe on His Son.


May He bless you in your studies, and through your every trial and tribulation with the knowledge that He is the reason that anyone is saved...
Not us or our response to the preaching of His words.

 

[Ben1445]

Absolutely, and He will hold all of those outside of Christ's body, accountable for what truth they were given by Him ( and willfully and stubbornly rejected ) at the Judgement.

Exactly.
You see, Ben, election and predestination run parallel to man's responsibility to believe and to seek God...
But even though men are responsible for seeking God, He tells us that we do not and will not ( Romans 3:9-18 ).
That's why that responsibility stops right at the threshold of God's purposes according to election...
Because we are guilty of not seeking Him, even though we should be.

And so the responsibility of the eternally lost is on God’s threshold, in your opinion? That makes God at fault for their failure to find Him. Suddenly they are innocent of a sin they are helpless to commit. They cannot reject what they have never been offered in good faith.

So, the reason that Paul made appeal to those things at Mars' Hill ( Acts 17:22-34 ), was because that is how Christ crucified for sinners is to be preached...

Not leading off with "God loves everyone", but knowing that whomever does believe God's word on the matter, is loved by God and is responding to that "call" out of a changed heart and mind that has been made willing to receive His words and to believe on His Son.


May He bless you in your studies, and through your every trial and tribulation with the knowledge that He is the reason that anyone is saved...
Not us or our response to the preaching of His words.

Election and predestination have nothing to do with the unsaved. The unsaved are not the elect. Passages referring to the elect are for believers. And they have future significance. The nature of election and predestination is not presently realized. We look forward to the adoption. It is, at present, incomplete in our flesh.
There is no doubt that the reason a person is saved is because they believe in/on Jesus.
I have never met a sinner who is proud of their marvelous intellect that solved their problems by its magnificent discovery of Jesus. This is an imaginary person who has been invented by persons who wish to absolve themselves of any responsibility toward salvation. The salvation is already offered to mankind. It is the Great Commission that is given to Jesus followers that tells us to spread it and make it available to the world. To somehow think that belief fabricates some kind of link or hold on salvation is to misunderstand faith itself.
I know God and God said that He loves the world. I can with a clear conscience tell all the world that God loves them also and sent His son to be the propitiation for their sins. I believe what God said and I believe it in the plain English. I believe if we needed to read and understand it in the Greek language it would have been clearly stated. We also would have no authority to translate anything.
In plain English it says the world, not part of it. It doesn’t say some of all, it says all. I believe the opportunity for salvation is to all who will open the door when they hear the Saviour knocking for the attention of any man.

 

[Dave G]

And so the responsibility of the eternally lost is on God’s threshold, in your opinion?

Yes.
According to Romans 9, He is the one who makes vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath.
In 1 Corinthians 4, Paul tells us that He is the one who makes one person to differ from another.

That makes God at fault for their failure to find Him.

Yes, it does, just like Israel being blinded by God so that they cannot see, cannot hear and will not be converted ( Matthew 13 ).

Judicial blinding ( Matthew 13, Mark 4, John 12, Romans 11 where it says that God blinded Israel and sent them a spirit of stupor ) places that supposed "offer" cleanly out of their grasp, doesn't it?
It also does not excuse our own fault at failing to seek Him in our hearts and in our minds, and stubbornly choosing to love our sin and refuse to repent of it.

Our failure or success at finding Him is entirely a result of Him having mercy and compassion on whom He will...
Not on whom we will.

 

[Dave G]

Suddenly they are innocent of a sin they are helpless to commit.

And suddenly, it seems to me that you're arguing with God, who can and will do with guilty sinners as He sees fit.

But His objective view of us as a race is what you are taking offense to, Ben...
Not what "Calvinists" teach.
No one is innocent of sin, and no one is "helpless" to commit them.
It's something that we love to do, and refuse to repent of.

Have you not read and understood Romans 1 through Romans 3?
How we as a race do not seek Him?
Have you not read how the wicked ( that's us, outside of Christ ) have no fear of God before our eyes?

If God says all have sinned, and the price for that is eternal punishment, then how is it that you're arguing with Him over who He saves and who He does not?

 

[Dave G]

They cannot reject what they have never been offered in good faith.

Salvation is not an "offer" Ben, and it never has been.
It's a promise made to a specific group of people, and it always has been.

I don't know who taught you this "system", but it's not what Paul preached to the churches.

Election and predestination have nothing to do with the unsaved. The unsaved are not the elect. Passages referring to the elect are for believers.

I disagree Ben, as I see that they also have everything to do with the unsaved as well.
Romans 9 makes this clear, at least to me.

Passages that are referring to the elect are referring to those that are saved, while passages that refer to "the wicked", "the lost" and those whom God hates, are referring to all those outside His house and outside of those He sent His Son to die for, to rise again for and to make intercession for at His right hand.

 

[Dave G]

I know God and God said that He loves the world.

I know Him as well, and He says that He hates the worker of iniquity ( Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5 ), which is why He's going to cast all who are outside of Christ into Hell and then into the Lake of Fire.
It isn't because He loves them with an eternal love;

It's because their sins grieve Him and the blood of His Son did not wash them of their sins.

In plain English it says the world, not part of it. It doesn’t say some of all, it says all. I believe the opportunity for salvation is to all who will open the door when they hear the Saviour knocking for the attention of any man.

To me, that's "Wesleyanism", Ben, and what's been taught for many years by those who claim to be "Arminians";
It's not the truth of God's word.
I'm sorry, sir, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

I wish you well, and may God bless you.

 

[Ben1445]

Yes.
According to Romans 9, He is the one who makes vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath.
In 1 Corinthians 4, Paul tells us that it is He is the one who makes one person to differ from another.

Yes, it does, just like Israel being blinded by God so that they cannot see, cannot hear and will not be converted ( Matthew 13 ).
Judicial blinding ( Matthew `2, Mark 4, John 12, Romans 11 where it says that God blinded Israel ) places that supposed "offer" cleanly out of their grasp, doesn't it?

It also does not excuse our own fault at failing to seek Him in our hearts and in our minds, and stubbornly choosing to love our sin and refuse to repent of it.

The offer is not cleanly out of their grasp. It says blindness in part.

 

[Ben1445]

I know Him as well, and He says that He hates the worker of iniquity ( Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5 ), which is why He's going to cast all who are outside of Christ into Hell and then into the Lake of Fire.
It isn't because He loves them with an eternal love;

It's because their sins grieve Him and the blood of His Son did not wash them of their sins.

It did answer for their sin. They did not believe.

To me, that's "Wesleyanism", Ben, and what's been taught for many years by those who claim to be "Arminians";
It's not the truth of God's word.
I'm sorry, sir, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

I wish you well, and may God bless you.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

If this is Wesleyanism, then the Bible is where you find it.

 

[Zaatar71]

This is an amazing passage of Scripture!

How can people who don’t seek God and have no ability to understand the Bible think that they have not only found God but also think that they have been serving Him?
Incredible!
The nerve of the non Calvinist elect to stand in front of God and fib again, knowing that they don’t seek God and didn’t even understand Scripture. Surely they will know it standing in front of God. Obviously they couldn’t be confused. They will know that they were seeking a false god.

Absolutely stunning!
Or could it be that none seek God and that is spoken to their shame because they should be. Because God has formed the world so that they may feel after Him and per chance, find Him though groping in the darkness?

People all over the world seek some kind of god. Even if they have to create their own god. Romans 1 describes this very well;
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

They did not like the God who proclaims the doctrines of grace, so they made their own god.

 

[Ben1445]

People all over the world seek some kind of god. Even if they have to create their own god. Romans 1 describes this very well;
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

They did not like the God who proclaims the doctrines of grace, so they made their own god.

So by your own admission, they are able to recognize God, dislike Him, and choose to reject Him and make a God of their own liking.

I agree that they have that choice. It all becomes clear when you use Scripture!

They knew God!
They rejected God.
They changed the truth of God into a lie.
After their choices, God gave them over to a reprobate mind.
He sought them. They rejected Him. He stopped seeking them and left them to their reprobate minds.

 

[Zaatar71]

So by your own admission, they are able to recognize God, dislike Him, and choose to reject Him and make a God of their own liking.

I agree that they have that choice. It all becomes clear when you use Scripture!

They knew God!
They rejected God.
They changed the truth of God into a lie.
After their choices, God gave them over to a reprobate mind.
He sought them. They rejected Him. He stopped seeking them and left them to their reprobate minds.

Glad we agree here. They reject the knowledge of the true and living God. They cannot submit to Him and His word, on His terms. They have to make an idol in place of the true God.

 

[Salty]

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[Ben1445]

Glad we agree here. They reject the knowledge of the true and living God. They cannot submit to Him and His word, on His terms. They have to make an idol in place of the true God.

Nice attempt to flip the script back.
But I didn’t say cannot. That is a lie. Jesus enabled every man with His payment for all the sins of the world. They can but they have, as you rightly stated, made a choice based upon what they like.

 

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