Calvinism, Arminianism, and Provisionism?

[JesusFan]

I'm guessing that you mean, is the possibility of a saving faith inherent in lost persons?

Your question is loaded on many levels.

One: Because it only allows two possibilities, the same two possibilities that Calvinism allows. It's the two options model, which is not Biblical. It's the flesh vs. Spirit, without allowing distinctions in the Spirit. It's born again or the flesh. I can show how that idea is not Biblical by asking you a simple question. One that was posed already but not answered. How did these believe?

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

And two: Technically a saving faith is the faith that begins with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That's what Jesus Authored and Finished. That's the work that He began in us and promised to finish. This is a result of the initial faith and the indwelling. Most people use the term 'faith', especially 'saving faith' very loosely, but in the context of your question I would not. You must distinguish a saving faith from our initial faith, called believing. If you believe, then you will have eternal life (John 3:16). If you believe, you will be saved (Romans 10:9). Technically, a saving faith is always the result of the initial faith. If you think that distinction is unbiblical, then think of the Paul vs. James debate. Paul is speaking of justification, the initial faith, and James is speaking of the evidences of faith (life), the fruit of the Spirit, the ongoing faith. OT believers had the initial faith, but did not have the ongoing, because they did not have the Spirit in them. None good, no not one (no Spirit).

You are playing both sides of the fence in the way you use "saving faith", counting it all as one, not because the Bible says to, but because Calvinism says to. By saying "saving faith', one can mean initial faith (cause) or one can also mean ongoing faith (life) , but they are two different questions, and you're trying to blend them into one.

Is prevenient grace inherent or a gift from God? Both, prevenient grace allows both man to chose, and God to give.

Problem is Prevenient grace theology is a john wesley model, but not found in the scriptures

 

[jakethebaptist]

In contrast, Flowers argues that the grace provided through the preaching of the gospel is sufficient for salvation without the need for any special inward work of the Holy Spirit.

Does Romans 1:16 -17 not provide scriptural support for this?

And where does faith come from? For in Romans 10:17, it comes from hearing the Word of God.

 

[JonC]

Does Romans 1:16 -17 not provide scriptural support for this?

And where does faith come from? For in Romans 10:17, it comes from hiearing the Word of God.

I think people sometimes hold "biblical" ideas apart from reality.

If a scientist explains to you methylmercury is deadly you would probably have enough faith to avoid it. Where does that faith come from? It cones from hearing that methylmercury is deadly.

It is not inherent in you (you were not born with a belief that methylmercury is deadly). BUT it is also not something given to you by the scientist (the scientist gave you the information). You could reject that information.

But with faith in God sometimes people treat this as if it is a metaphysical "thing". I am not sure why.

You are absolutely right. Faith comes from hearing the Word of God.

 

[Dave G]

Leighton Flowers offers a new option, Provisionalism.

I was raised in "Provisionism" ( sometimes known as "Traditionalism" ) for over 25 years after coming to Christ during the preaching of His words in 1978.

My friend, this has been around for quite some time, but until recently never really had a label.
On a personal note,
The more I investigate its origins, the more I find that it's something that began to spring up during and after the "Reformation" in England and in other places, but never really gained much of a following until the last 300 years or so, and especially within the past 150 years in America.

The reason I left it, was because I began to see differently during my own personal studies of the Scriptures.

Also,
The reason I reject it as being the truth, is because of how it fails to address many of the things that the Lord Jesus and His apostles and prophets had to say about how and why anyone is saved.

Having sat under prominent preachers of it for almost half my converted life, I can personally tell you that not once was election ever dealt with, not once were key passages of God's word ( such as John 6, Romans 9, Ephesians 1 and 2 ) ever read through, studied and declared from the pulpit, and not once was satisfactory explanation ever given for the differences in what the Bible says versus what the preachers think that it says.

In other words, what they were saying didn't match what God is saying.


I'm sorry, Dave, but we'll have to agree to disagree.
I don't see "Provisionism" anywhere in the Scriptures, but like you and "Calvinism", I do see where pieces of it can be supported from some of them.

 

[Dave G]

And where does faith come from? For in Romans 10:17, it comes from hearing the Word of God.

My friend, if you'll look closer at the passage you quoted, you'll see that it comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the word of God:

" So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. "

God speaks, and His people listen, understand and, more importantly, believe His words.

In other places, we find that Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher of faith ( Hebrews 12:2 ), that it is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
That it is the faith of God's elect ( Titus 1:1 ) and the gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 );
Which is said by the Lord to be "of" Jesus Christ... that it actually comes from Jesus Christ ( Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20 ).

Before that faith came to us, God's people were kept under the Law...after it came to us, we are no longer under the Law because it was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Our faith is evidential and part of who we are in Christ...
It cannot and does not exist as a means to gain God's favor;

That anyone believes on His Son is the evidence of His work in and through a person.

 

[Dave...]

I was raised in "Provisionism" ( sometimes known as "Traditionalism" ) for over 25 years after coming to Christ during the preaching of His words in 1978.

My friend, this has been around for quite some time, but until recently never really had a label.
On a personal note,
The more I investigate its origins, the more I find that it's something that began to spring up during and after the "Reformation" in England and in other places, but never really gained much of a following until the last 300 years or so, and especially within the past 150 years in America.

The reason I left it, was because I began to see differently during my own personal studies of the Scriptures.

Also,
The reason I reject it as being the truth, is because of how it fails to address many of the things that the Lord Jesus and His apostles and prophets had to say about how and why anyone is saved.

Having sat under prominent preachers of it for almost half my converted life, I can personally tell you that not once was election ever dealt with, not once were key passages of God's word ( such as John 6, Romans 9, Ephesians 1 and 2 ) ever read through, studied and declared from the pulpit, and not once was satisfactory explanation ever given for the differences in what the Bible says versus what the preachers think that it says.

In other words, what they were saying didn't match what God is saying.


I'm sorry, Dave, but we'll have to agree to disagree.
I don't see "Provisionism" anywhere in the Scriptures, but like you and "Calvinism", I do see where pieces of it can be supported from some of them.

Hey Dave.

Actually flowers does deal with most if not all those passages, but in other videos. I'm not a Flowers fan, but I do like to hear opposing thoughts on Scripture. I expected it to be old in bits and pcs. Mabey he just invented the term. Kind of like the acronym TULIP came later down the road from it's theological camp.

There truly is really nothing new under the sun. Todays Pentecostal Charismatic churches are just reincarnated mystery religions. In many ways, I believe that Calvinism is todays Scribes and Pharisees.

As for provisionism not in Scripture? "My grace is sufficient." God will provide.

 

[Dave...]

Having sat under prominent preachers of it for almost half my converted life, I can personally tell you that not once was election ever dealt with, not once were key passages of God's word ( such as John 6, Romans 9, Ephesians 1 and 2 ) ever read through, studied and declared from the pulpit, and not once was satisfactory explanation ever given for the differences in what the Bible says versus what the preachers think that it says.

Dave

I found this if you're interested. I haven't read any of it so I'm not promoting it, just providing you with a provisionist who attempted to answer those passages that you said were avoided.

Answering Calvinistic Proof Texts

Calvinists readily admit their teachings are difficult to swallow even for the most committed believer. Calvin himself refers to the doctrine of reprobation as a “dreadful decree” …

soteriology101.com

 

[jakethebaptist]

My friend, if you'll look closer at the passage you quoted, you'll see that it comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the word of God:

" So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. "

God speaks, and His people listen, understand and, more importantly, believe His words.

In other places, we find that Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher of faith ( Hebrews 12:2 ), that it is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
That it is the faith of God's elect ( Titus 1:1 ) and the gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 );
Which is said by the Lord to be "of" Jesus Christ... that it actually comes from Jesus Christ ( Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20 ).

Before that faith came to us, God's people were kept under the Law...after it came to us, we are no longer under the Law because it was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Our faith is evidential and part of who we are in Christ...
It cannot and does not exist as a means to gain God's favor;

That anyone believes on His Son is the evidence of His work in and through a person.

I didn't quote, I paraphrased. But let's expand the context a bit, starting with Romans 10:5:

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Now the focus is on vs. 14 and following. The context here is clear that saving faith is preceded by hearing the gospel. How the gospel message produces that faith is not addressed here, nor anywhere else in Romans, save in 1:16, where the gospel message itself is declared to be the power of God to salvation. I would argue that deconstructing the process of salvation more than this is practically irrelevant and encroaches into Titus 3:9 territory.

So my challenge is, can Flower's base argument that it is Scripture which produces saving faith within a person be declared as unscriptural? How can the clear declarative statements in Romans be explained in such a way to dismiss this argument?

 

[Dave...]

If anyone is interested. Here are some more detailed videos on Flowers position on provisionism. These videos are longer.

 

[Dave...]

I watched the first video. Flowers says he's southern Baptist. But he qualifies that with saying that his theological understanding of Scripture does not come from any Baptist traditional beliefs. He also stated that a provisionist doesn't necessarily need to believe in corporate election. That's interesting.

 

[Dave G]

So my challenge is, can Flower's base argument that it is Scripture which produces saving faith within a person be declared as unscriptural?

Yes, because the Scriptures have no power, in and of themselves ) to positively influence men outside of the the new birth, the Holy Spirit's indwelling ( 1 Corinthians 2:1-16 ) and the Lord's decision to open someone's understanding so that they can understand them ( Luke 24:45 ).
Without the work of God in a person, we as natural haters of God automatically reject God's words, and fail to understand them as well.

The Lord Jesus Himself tells us of this inability ( and unwillingness ) to "hear" His words in John 8:43-47...
Why some "hear" His words and why others do not.

How and why Mr. Flowers has missed this in his studies, I do not know.


The truth is, God's work in a person is what produces faith in them;
His words are either accepted or rejected based upon the condition of the hearer's heart and mind, and whether or not they are being "called" by the power of His Spirit.

Belief of His words is a result of God's unmerited favor, it does not influence Him to grant anyone that favor.

 

[Dave G]

How can the clear declarative statements in Romans be explained in such a way to dismiss this argument?

Because there are other declarative statements in the Scriptures that not only give more detail to the subject, but in reality contradict Mr. Flowers' argument... and serve to clarify how and why we as believers have overcome our formerly bankrupt and God-hating condition and have chosen to believe on His Son;
Scriptures that Mr. Flowers knows all too well, yet disagrees with their "interpretation" of.

Passages like:

Romans 1:18-32
Romans 3:9-18
John 3:18-21
Psalms 10
Psalms 14

..that tell us of our broken condition, and how bad off we really were without the Lord invading our lives and granting us repentance and the miracle of the new birth.

Also,
The Scriptures that tell us where our faith as believers in Jesus Christ actually comes from ( and which I gave many of to you in my prior post ), are some of them.

 

[Dave G]

My friend,
There is no such thing as "saving faith" in the eternal sense....
A believer's faith ( which saves God's people from earthly troubles ) comes from God Himself, and is a product of their being saved.
It's evidential, not conditional.

We as selfish and prideful men who have rebelled against God have not been left with a "choice to make";
God has already chosen, knowing full well that if the choice were left up to us, we would choose to live in our sins and continue in them, never seeking Him or His ways.

Salvation is by grace through faith...it is not something that we can earn through our obedience, belief, or any other means.
It's a gift, not a reward for any effort or decision that we make either for or against Him.


That said, I will take my leave of this thread so as to avoid the usual argumentation that always seems to accompany such discussions, and wish you well in your studies of His word.

I wish you well, and may God bless you.

 

[Dave...]

The Lord Jesus Himself tells us of this inability ( and unwillingness ) to "hear" His words in John 8:43-47...
Why some "hear" His words and why others do not.

How and why Mr. Flowers has missed this in his studies, I do not know.

That passage tells us the difference between those who hear and those who don't in vs. 47. Those who hear already belong to God. It's a simple statement when taken in the context of the Bible, simply means what it says. But Calvinism assumes it's system into the meaning of that passage.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.