What Doctrine could keep us from Heaven?

[Salty]

On another thread it was asked about doctrine : (post # 19)

I said this:
Charlie -
As I look at my answer - it might appear I disagree with you .
Quite the opposite - I do agree with you.
Looks like I was playing "Devils advocate"

So what doctrines would actually keep us from true salvation.
how about if a person did not believe in Lake of Fire or the Devil?
A person believes baptism is necessary to complete salvation
A person believes you are not truly saved until you speak in tongues?

 

[JonC]

Doctrines that deny the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I will say that sometimes it may not be actual doctrines that keep us from being saved but how these doctrines are held.

We are commanded not to lean on our own understanding but on every word that comes forth from God.
We are warned that philosophies can carry us away.

Doctrine itself does not save. When we trust in our own understanding then we are trusting in ourselves (men may have told us that the Bible really teaches this or that, but these men are a dime a dozen and people are the ones who pick which ones to believe). It is literally not repenting from the flesh.

So many doctrines that may be wrong but not indicate a person is lost may also indicate the person is lost by how they are held. We see dimly as through a glass, sp we all lack perfect understanding.

 

[Reformed]

The only "doctrine" that can keep a person from heaven is not actually a doctrine. It is unbelief. Unbelief manifests itself in heresies like Arianism and Gnosticism. When you hear of notable preachers abandoning orthodoxy for falsehood it is not those false teachings that are leading them astray. It is an unbelieving heart.

Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 update (Heb 3:12). (1995). The Lockman Foundation.

 

[atpollard]

Doctrines that deny the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I would say doctrines that deny the PERSON of Jesus Christ. (That which places faith in a man-made version of Christ that substitutes a “Jesus shaped idol” for the real thing).

 

[Charlie24]

On another thread it was asked about doctrine : (post # 19)

I said this:
Charlie -
As I look at my answer - it might appear I disagree with you .
Quite the opposite - I do agree with you.
Looks like I was playing "Devils advocate"

So what doctrines would actually keep us from true salvation.
how about if a person did not believe in Lake of Fire or the Devil?
A person believes baptism is necessary to complete salvation
A person believes you are not truly saved until you speak in tongues?

It's all the ones we add to faith in Christ as mandatory for salvation. Whatever that may be.

Rom. 11:6

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Anything and everything we add to faith for salvation is works.

 

[JonC]

I would say doctrines that deny the PERSON of Jesus Christ. (That which places faith in a man-made version of Christ that substitutes a “Jesus shaped idol” for the real thing).

I agree.

I am not sure how @Salty means the OP to go. I have said before, for example, that there is a difference between not believing Jesus and the Father are One but different in persons and denying that truth.

 

[atpollard]

I agree.

I am not sure how @Salty means the OP to go. I have said before, for example, that there is a difference between not believing Jesus and the Father are One but different in persons and denying that truth.

Absolutely. One can embrace “modalism” and be SAVED but WRONG, yet if one embraces “Jesus was a great man, but not God“ (like Islam, for example), one is both WRONG and WITHOUT A SAVIOR.

Romans 10:9-10 [CSB] If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.

 

[atpollard]

It's all the ones we add to faith in Christ as mandatory for salvation. Whatever that may be.

Rom. 11:6

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Anything and everything we add to faith for salvation is works.

I must respectfully disagree.
The question is what would keep us from heaven, and I find it incredulous that one could confess their sins and place the trust in their eternal salvation in Jesus Christ and the Cross, yet be turned away at the gates of heaven and cast into eternal damnation because they believed “Baptism is a Sacrament” (part of the effective means that God uses to accomplish His salvific work).

As a die-hard monergist, the issue seems far more binary to me … the Father chose you and you have been transformed by the encounter with the Son; or not.

 

[Charlie24]

I must respectfully disagree.
The question is what would keep us from heaven, and I find it incredulous that one could confess their sins and place the trust in their eternal salvation in Jesus Christ and the Cross, yet be turned away at the gates of heaven and cast into eternal damnation because they believed “Baptism is a Sacrament” (part of the effective means that God uses to accomplish His salvific work).

As a die-hard monergist, the issue seems far more binary to me … the Father chose you and you have been transformed by the encounter with the Son; or not.

Well, I guess we disagree, but that's nothing new around here.

Another reason I believe what I believe is found in Rom. 4:14,

"For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:"

Some say the Law here only applies to the exact Law of Moses, I disagree.

The Law was a system of works, and here Paul includes all works, anything that is not Grace.

So I see water baptism, or anything else made mandatory for salvation along with Grace through faith, cancels out the Grace.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

The Gospels reveal that Jesus spoke many times about the devil. In view of that biblical evidence, a professing Christian who denies the existence of the devil is not a true believer because he would have to believe that Jesus was wrong when He made all those statements.

Jesus would not be and could not be God if He were ever wrong about anything that He said. A professing Christian who holds that Jesus was wrong when He spoke about the devil is someone who believes in another Jesus and not in the One that the Bible reveals to be incarnate Deity.

 

[atpollard]

So I see water baptism, or anything else made mandatory for salvation along with Grace through faith, cancels out the Grace.

So, for the record, you view all who embrace the concept of “Sacraments” as damned because of a salvation by works, right?

All Catholics are damned.
All Lutherans are damned.
All Anglicans are damned.

However much faith they place in Christ, irrespective of God’s grace … they are disqualified from the possibility of salvation by their belief in effectual works as a means of grace.

Yup, we disagree.

 

[Charlie24]

So, for the record, you view all who embrace the concept of “Sacraments” as damned because of a salvation by works, right?

All Catholics are damned.
All Lutherans are damned.
All Anglicans are damned.

However much faith they place in Christ, irrespective of God’s grace … they are disqualified from the possibility of salvation by their belief in effectual works as a means of grace.

Yup, we disagree.

Yes, we disagree.

I remember Paul telling the Galatians "you have fallen from Grace" when the Judaists came and convinced them they couldn't be saved unless they were circumcised.

Of course I seriously doubt we agree on what this means.

 

[Salty]

I am not sure how @Salty means the OP to go.

In any way that it lands! Wow, such interesting responses!

 

[atpollard]

Yes, we disagree.

I remember Paul telling the Galatians "you have fallen from Grace" when the Judaists came and convinced them they couldn't be saved unless they were circumcised.

Of course I seriously doubt we agree on what this means.

Thank you for the exchange … vigorous without being “unchristian” (for either of us). Knowing what we DO NOT believe, helps us clarify what it is that we DO believe.

 

[Charlie24]

Thank you for the exchange … vigorous without being “unchristian” (for either of us). Knowing what we DO NOT believe, helps us clarify what it is that we DO believe.

Yes, I agree, it's good to have an exchange the way it should be.

I know we all have our differences on what gets us into heaven or keeps us out, that is sad above all that I can imagine.

We can't be passive when it comes to salvation, this is eternity we're talking about.

God expects us to get it right, and that gate is narrow in many ways.

This is a subject that's quick to strike a nerve, don't want to take it to far, but we need to be absolutely sure we have it right.

 

[atpollard]

We can't be passive when it comes to salvation, this is eternity we're talking about.

God expects us to get it right, and that gate is narrow in many ways.

This is a subject that's quick to strike a nerve, don't want to take it to far, but we need to be absolutely sure we have it right.

To this point, I have invested most of my energy in clarifying YOUR beliefs (being certain that what I heard is what you said). I think it only fair that I offer my beliefs on works and soteriology for critical (in the positive sense of that word) examination by you and others.

It is a clever quip, but one that contains more than a little truth:
"I believe that we are saved by WORKS, they are just not OUR works that save us!"

John 15:16, 19 [ESV]
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. ...
19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

I believe it no accident that TWICE in the same chapter, John recorded the claim of Jesus that HE CHOSE US (not that we chose Him). I believe that salvation stands or falls on God's choice:

Romans 9:15-16 [ESV]
15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Furthermore:

John 3:18-21[ESV]
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

Note that "condemned" or "not condemned" precedes any discussion on "works" (good or evil) and is based on "belief" - only God grants eyes to see and ears to hear, from which comes "belief".
Note that "good works" are "carried out IN GOD" ... as in "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." - Ephesians 2:10 [ESV] ... good works being a FRUIT growing out of our salvation, not a root leading to our salvation.

However, SALVATION stands or falls on the Father drawing and giving, the Son choosing and justifying and redeeming, and the Spirit sealing for redemption, comforting and guiding through life and to glory. Salvation does not stand or fall on a theology exam, on our understanding or on our faithful actions. GOD saves, not our obedience.

1 John 4:13-19 [ESV]
By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us.

Salvation stands on the foundation of HIS LOVE, not our understanding or obedience.
My position is that SALVATION, like so much in life, is not "what you know" but "who you know" ... or more accurately in the case of Salvation, "Who knows you!"

(Thank you for listening.)
Arthur

 

[Charlie24]

To this point, I have invested most of my energy in clarifying YOUR beliefs (being certain that what I heard is what you said). I think it only fair that I offer my beliefs on works and soteriology for critical (in the positive sense of that word) examination by you and others.

It is a clever quip, but one that contains more than a little truth:
"I believe that we are saved by WORKS, they are just not OUR works that save us!"

John 15:16, 19 [ESV]
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. ...
19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

I believe it no accident that TWICE in the same chapter, John recorded the claim of Jesus that HE CHOSE US (not that we chose Him). I believe that salvation stands or falls on God's choice:

Romans 9:15-16 [ESV]
15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Furthermore:

John 3:18-21[ESV]
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

Note that "condemned" or "not condemned" precedes any discussion on "works" (good or evil) and is based on "belief" - only God grants eyes to see and ears to hear, from which comes "belief".
Note that "good works" are "carried out IN GOD" ... as in "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." - Ephesians 2:10 [ESV] ... good works being a FRUIT growing out of our salvation, not a root leading to our salvation.

However, SALVATION stands or falls on the Father drawing and giving, the Son choosing and justifying and redeeming, and the Spirit sealing for redemption, comforting and guiding through life and to glory. Salvation does not stand or fall on a theology exam, on our understanding or on our faithful actions. GOD saves, not our obedience.

1 John 4:13-19 [ESV]
By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us.

Salvation stands on the foundation of HIS LOVE, not our understanding or obedience.
My position is that SALVATION, like so much in life, is not "what you know" but "who you know" ... or more accurately in the case of Salvation, "Who knows you!"

(Thank you for listening.)
Arthur

We read about salvation and those being saved in Scripture, but God gave only one author of Scripture the responsibility to explain what salvation is and how we get there.

Now we can go by what we think happened when Peter said Acts 2:38, and take it for what it's worth, or we can go to the author who spells it out clearly and unmistakably. It's as simple as that for me.

The book of Acts does not tell me how to be saved, it gives examples of some being saved. The apostle Paul tells me as he explains everything concerning salvation.

Eph. 2:8-9

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Rom. 10:9-10

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

I suggest we follow ONLY the instructions of the great apostle who gives the explaining and instructions for salvation, to the letter.

 

[jakethebaptist]

The only "doctrine" that can keep a person from heaven is not actually a doctrine. It is unbelief. Unbelief manifests itself in heresies like Arianism and Gnosticism. When you hear of notable preachers abandoning orthodoxy for falsehood it is not those false teachings that are leading them astray. It is an unbelieving heart.

Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 update (Heb 3:12). (1995). The Lockman Foundation.

This statement needs to be qualified, because unbelief in what? This implies a positive belief and a set teaching to believe or disbelieve.

There are several passages of scripture which declare an unregenerative state:
Disobedience to the gospel - Romans 2:8
Denial of personal sin - 1st John 1:8
Denial that Jesus is the Christ - 1st John 2:22
And let's not forget John 3:36 - "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

The implications for each statement need more detail, but since this is an Internet forum, perhaps a summary would suffice?

Positive denial of a need for salvation, Jesus's ability to provide that salvation, His work in providing salvation, or rejecting His path for salvation will be prohibitive for salvation.
The reverse is true. Positive affirmation of a need for salvation, Jesus' ability to provide that salvation, His work to provide salvation, and a positive response to these beliefs result in salvation.

There is a distinction to be made here - any one of the denials is sufficient, but all the above must be affirmed.

 

[Reformed]

This statement needs to be qualified, because unbelief in what?

Unbelief in the Gospel message. Pure and simple. No need to complicate it.

 

[kyredneck]

The only "doctrine" that can keep a person from heaven is not actually a doctrine. It is unbelief.

2nd Corinthians Chapter 4

4​	in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.

John Chapter 8

43​	Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
44​	Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

John Chapter 10

26​	But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
27​	My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Matthew Chapter 23

33​	Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?

Matthew Chapter 25

41​	Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: