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JESUS SUFFERED THE WRATH OF GOD EQUIVALENT OF OUR ETERNAL HELL.

37818

Well-Known Member
@Alan Dale Gross,
Matthew, 25:41, Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . . .

The Devil and his angels are not redeemed.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Adapted from;
"Let us inquire into the Cause, Reason, and Occasion of the Sufferings and Death of Christ; and how He came to undergo them.

"With respect to God, and His Concern in them. To trace this, we must go back as far as the Eternal Decrees and Purposes of God; which are the Foundation, Source, and Spring of them; for it was by the Determinate Counsel and Foreknowledge of God, that Christ was Delivered into the hands of the Jews, and was taken, and by wicked hands was Crucified and Slain.”

“The True Causes and Reasons why it was the Pleasure of God, and the Will of Christ, from their Great Love to men, that He should Suffer for them, were their sins and transgressions; to make Satisfaction for them, and Save them from them; it was not for any sin of His Own, because He never committed any, but for the sins of others;

“Jesus was Wounded for our transgressions;

“He was Bruised for our sins;

“He was Stricken for the transgressions of His people;

“He Died for their sins, according to the Scriptures, #Isa 53:5,8 1Co 15:3.”

“In short, the complete Salvation of all God's Elect: Christ came to gather together the children of God that were scattered abroad, by dying for them to Seek and to Save that which was lost; even to Save all His people from their sins, by Finishing Transgression, Making an End of sin, Making Reconciliation for iniquity, and bringing in Everlasting Righteousness; and by Obtaining an entire Conquest over all enemies, sin, Satan, and Death, and Hell, #Joh 11:51,52 Mt 1:21 Da 9:24.

Jesus’ death was "voluntary"; for though His Life was taken from the Earth, seemingly in a violent manner, with respect to men, being cut off in a Judicial way; yet not without His Full Will and Consent; He Laid it down of Himself, and gave Himself freely and Voluntarily to be a Sacrifice, through His Death, for the sins of His people.

Additionally, the Corporal Death Christ Endured in the Flesh included a Death in His Soul, Equal to a Spiritual and an Eternal Death, though not a Death of His Soul.

So, “besides the Corporal Death which Christ Endured, there was a Death in His Soul, though not of it, which answered to a Spiritual and an Eternal Death; for as the Transgression of the first Adam, involved him and all his Posterity in, and exposed them to, not only a Corporal Death, but to a Moral or Spiritual, and an Eternal Death; so the Second Adam, Jesus, as the Surety of His people, to Make Satisfaction for that Transgression, and all others of theirs, must undergo Death, in every Sense of the Threatening, #Ge 2:17.

“And though a Moral or Spiritual Death, which Adam exposed the entire Human Race to lies in a loss of the Image of God; in a privation of Original Righteousness; in impotence to that which is good, and in an inclination, bias, and servitude of the mind to that which is evil;

“And, those effects of the Fall of Adam could not fall upon the Pure and Holy Soul of Jesus Christ, which would have made Him Unfit for His Mediatorial Work; yet there was something similar to the effects of the Fall of Adam Jesus Suffered, and to still have Jesus be without sin and pollution;

“Jesus could and did Suffer a Darkness of His Soul, Disquietude, Distress, want of Spiritual Joy and Comfort, Agony, as His Soul Experienced being Sorrowful even unto Death, Pressed with the Weight of the sins of His people on Him, and a Sense of Divine Wrath on Account of them;

“and what He Endured both in the Garden and on the Cross, especially when He was Made sin and a Curse, and His Soul was made an Offering for sin, was tantamount to an Eternal Death, or the sufferings of the wicked in Hell;

“Since, though the Sufferings of Jesus and those of men differ as to circumstance of time and place; the persons being different, the one finite, the other Infinite; yet, as to the Essence of their Suffering, they are the same:

“The Essence of Suffering in Eternal Death consists in these two things,

1.) Punishment of Loss, and 2.) Punishment of Sense:

1.) Punishment of Loss lies in an Eternal Separation from God, or a deprivation of His Presence Forever; "Depart from Me, ye cursed":

and 2.) Punishment of Sense is an Everlasting sense of the Wrath of God, expressed by "Everlasting Fire".

“Now Christ Endured what was similar and answerable to these;
because for a while He Suffered 1.) the Punishment of Loss of His Father's Gracious Presence, when He said, "My God, My God, why hast Thou Forsaken Me!?"

“And He Endured 2.) the Punishment of Sense, when God was Wroth with His Son, Jesus, His Anointed; and God Poured Out His Wrath on Jesus like fire upon Him;

“and His Heart Melted like wax within Him, under The Wrath of God; and "the sorrows of Hell" compassed Him about, #Ps 89:38 22:14 18:5.

Eternity it not of the Essence of Punishment; and only takes place when the person punished cannot bear the whole at once: and being finite, as sinful man is, cannot make satisfaction to the infinite Majesty of God, injured by sin, the demerit of which is Infinite Punishment: and as that cannot be bore at once by a finite creature, it is continued ad infinitum throughout all Eternity in Hell;

“However, with Jesus Christ being an Infinite Person, He was able to Bear the Whole Punishment of His Elect at once; and the Infinity of His Person abundantly compensates for the Eternity of the Punishment.”

“The Sufferings of Jesus as He Bore the Whole Punishment of God’s Elect are Expiatory and Satisfactory. While the sufferings of saints are by way of Fatherly Chastisement, they have no Efficacy to Expiate sin or make Atonement for their sins.

“|But Christ's Sufferings, through the Infinite-ness of His Person, are a Complete Atonement for all the sins of His people; by His Sacrifice and Death He has Put Away sin Forever, and Perfected Forever them that are Sanctified.”

You've been listening to the likes of Kenneth Copland and his crowd with this nonsense of Christ dying spiritually.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Christ had two deaths on the cross.

Matthew 27:46, And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Isaiah,53:12, . . . because he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . . .

John 19:28, . . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . . .

Then His physical death for His bodily resurrection.

Luke 23:46, And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Christ had two deaths on the cross.

Matthew 27:46, And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Isaiah,53:12, . . . because he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . . .

John 19:28, . . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . . .

Then His physical death for His bodily resurrection.

Luke 23:46, And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

You also probably believe as Copland that Christ suffered in Hell until the Father that said, that's enough.

Jesus Christ was a man just as we are, but He was also God at the same time. He laid aside His power as God and lived His life on this earth just as we do, not knowing what's around the next corner, unless as in His case, the Holy Spirit told Him what was around the next corner.

Christ could not die by any means known to man, unless He freely chose to give up His life, and He did just that for us!

But to die spiritually while being God is impossible, only the soul that sins will die spiritually and even then God has made a way to escape that death. Jesus Christ never sinned!

"He poured out His soul unto death" does not mean He died spiritually. It's the fact that God Himself gave His life voluntarily in His suffering for mankind. He gave all that He had in this life He lived, He gave it all for us.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
The problem is that while people can find the idea that Jesus suffered God's wrath in the writings if several men belonging to a particular sect, people cannot find it in God's Word.

SDA's can find their doctrines in the writings of SDA men. Mormons can find their doctrines in the writings of Mormon menm. JWs can find their doctrines in the writings of JW men. And yes. Calvinists can find their doctrines in the writings of other Calvinists.

But, they cannot find their doctrines in the writings of God.
We derive our doctrines from the very word of God, as we clearly see them taught and held in there, but others who dislike the concpt of wrath of God as being pagan and foreign are blinding themselves to reading and seeing that in the Bible
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Who in the Hell said it was. The issue is NOT whether fire describes an environmental aspect of the afterlife for the lost.

The issue is: "He [Jesus] experienced what every lost sinner will for all eternity" This is a quote from Jesusfan, and not, repeat not from me.

Stop your false implications.

Here is my response to Jesusfan's nonsense statement: "All these claims He suffered as if in Hades and Gehenna are absolute nonsense."

Jesus suffered and sacrificed His physical life on the cross!

His death was a ransom for all.

He became the means of reconciliation not only for us, but also for the whole of humanity.

He purchased not only those to be saved, but also those never to be saved, 2 Peter 2:1.
The experience Jesus had was NOT like every crucified person had, as he suffered that physical pain and torment, but far worse was facing and enduring upon that Cross the wrath and judgment earned and due to every lost sinners that he would ever save
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
You also probably believe as Copland that Christ suffered in Hell until the Father that said, that's enough.

Jesus Christ was a man just as we are, but He was also God at the same time. He laid aside His power as God and lived His life on this earth just as we do, not knowing what's around the next corner, unless as in His case, the Holy Spirit told Him what was around the next corner.

Christ could not die by any means known to man, unless He freely chose to give up His life, and He did just that for us!

But to die spiritually while being God is impossible, only the soul that sins will die spiritually and even then God has made a way to escape that death. Jesus Christ never sinned!

"He poured out His soul unto death" does not mean He died spiritually. It's the fact that God Himself gave His life voluntarily in His suffering for mankind. He gave all that He had in this life He lived, He gave it all for us.
Jesus remained very God, never emptied Himself to no longer being very God, correct?
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The experience Jesus had was NOT like every crucified person had, as he suffered that physical pain and torment, but far worse was facing and enduring upon that Cross the wrath and judgment earned and due to every lost sinners that he would ever save
Yet another diversion, a false claim, and a manufactured false premise.

Did anyone say Christ's experience on the cross was "like every crucified person?" Nope. this poster posts nonstop strawmen.

Did Jesus suffer just for those to be saved, or did He die as a ransom for all, including those heading for swift destruction? He tasted death for all people becoming the means of reconciliation for the whole of Humanity.

 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Yet another diversion, a false claim, and a manufactured false premise.

Did anyone say Christ's experience on the cross was "like every crucified person?" Nope. this poster posts nonstop strawmen.

Did Jesus suffer just for those to be saved, or did He die as a ransom for all, including those heading for swift destruction? He tasted death for all people becoming the means of reconciliation for the whole of Humanity.
he died for those whom the Father intended to get saved by that Cross
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Jesus remained very God, never emptied Himself to no longer being very God, correct?

The Scripture doesn't say for sure, but I believe after His resurrection HIs took back His power as God.

He had finished what He came to do and claimed His place at the right hand of His Father, being equal with the Father.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jesus never died spiritualty, as he remained always very God, but did experience as a Man all the wrath and judgement form the Father due to all lost sinners that he came to save and reconcile back to the Father
So Christ did not die as a ransom for all. Why rip up 1 Timothy 2:6? Why claim Jesus did not "buy" with His life the guy heading for swift destruction? 2 Peter 2:1
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Isiah 53:5 NASB
But He was pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.

If we use the context of the NT, we might understand its meaning thus:

But our Savior was punished for our offenses,
He was humbled unto death for our wrongdoings,
The result of His severe chastisement brought the means of peace with God,
that by His physical destruction we might be removed from our sinful situation.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Christ's sacrifice provided the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, those to be saved and those never to be saved, 1 John 2:2 and 2 Peter 2:1.

Access to God's provision of the means of reconciliation is by way of us both believing in Christ's name, AND placing our full devotion upon Him, making Christ the overriding priority of our lives. But that does not save us or even merit our salvation. But when and if God credits our faith, graciously, as righteousness, then we gain access to His glorious grace of salvation via our redemption (being placed into Christ spiritually) justification (undergoing the washing of regeneration) and indwelling (being sealed in Christ with our Helper, our Paraclete).

The Gospel of Christ
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So Christ did not die as a ransom for all. Why rip up 1 Timothy 2:6? Why claim Jesus did not "buy" with His life the guy heading for swift destruction? 2 Peter 2:1
You have to limit the atonement in some way.
If our Lord is a ransom for every single person, why are some not ransomed? If He bought with His life, the 'guy heading for swift destruction,' why do some guys still head there? You are limiting the atonement to those who believe or you are saying that when our Lord said, "It is finished," He actually had not finished anything.

‘It is finished.’ What was finished? The foundation stone of God’s purposes in the history of man was now laid once and for all. It had been prophesied and declared in various ways, but now it was accomplished. “The purpose of God may be summarized thus: to display His grace and to magnify His Son in the creating of children in His own image and glory” (A. W. Pink). This was the work given to the Son by the Father: to redeem from among mankind a people for God, cleansed from their sins and this is what He had accomplished. “I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do” (John 17:4).

Our Lord is speaking therefore especially of His sacrificial work on the cross. He had prayed in the garden, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.” Now He had drained the cup; the three hours of darkness were over, the Father’s wrath towards sin had been propitiated; justice had been satisfied, excepting only the final act of dying which followed almost at once. It was indeed finished.

The word teleo,translated ‘finished’ in John 19:30, appears quite a few times in the New Testament and has some very interesting meanings :-

Matt 11:1, A.V. ‘…..When Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples…..’

Matt 17:24. “Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?”

Luke 2:39. ‘So when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord…..’

Luke 18:31. ‘…..And all the things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished.’

So what was made an end of at the cross? Our sins, the guilt of them and their very memory in the mind of God (Jer 31:34).

What was paid? The price of our redemption. ‘Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us’ (Gal 3:13).

What was performed? All the righteous requirements of the law.

What was accomplished? All the work that the Father had given Christ to do (John 17:4).
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You have to limit the atonement in some way. SNIP
1. What does it mean to pay the ransom? It means Jesus paid the price for redeeming. So everyone can be ransomed, yet not all the ransomed are redeemed.

2. Jesus finished His mission of providing the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity. But the Divine action to redeem those of His choosing, and reconcile them with the washing of regeneration, making them alive together with Christ is occurring from the time of Christ's sacrifice, until the end of the age.

3. Redemption refers to being transferred out of the realm of darkness (in Adam) and into the kingdom of His beloved Son (in Christ).

4) When transferred spiritually into Christ, the lost, spiritually dead person, undergoes the washing of regeneration which removes what God held against them, also called the circumcision of Christ, justifying them, so they are no longer dead, separated due to unholiness, but making them alive together with Christ. Then, having been made firm in Christ, they are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

5. The issue is not whether Jesus accomplished something, having "finished" it, but what was accomplished. Reconciliation was not accomplished, because we have the ministry of reconciliation which will result in the reconciliation of those of His choosing.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
@Alan Dale Gross,
Matthew, 25:41, Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . . .

The Devil and his angels are not redeemed.
Yeah, and they are Doomed to suffer in the Lake of Fire, Forever.

That is the reason I have a theory about how confused practically everyone is regarding the book of Revelation. Revelation describes the Doom of Satan.

So, he goes about as a roaring lion seeking whose understanding of it he may devour. Starting with "there are four views..."(?) When and where and why would God ever be associated with that kind of 'Instant Confusion'? I am of the opinion we need to "try the spirits" and take another running stab at the whole idea of asking "what did it mean to those to whom it was written in the first century and who were blessed by reading and doing those things written that are contained in its 'Revelation' and that's going to be one thing, not four different scrambled up 'theories'.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
You also probably believe as Copland that Christ suffered in Hell until the Father that said, that's enough.
No.
Christ had two deaths on the cross.
What part of ON the cross do you deny?
It was finished on the cross before Christ physically died.
John 19:30, When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.(2)


Hear.
His death (1) for sin was completed before his physical death (2).
John 19:28, . . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . .
[Christ' death for sins was already finished.]
 
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