Thoughts on John 19:30

[Martin Marprelate]

There are seven things that we may see finished, paid, fulfilled or accomplished on the cross.

1. On the cross we may see the fulfilment of all the prophesies which had been written of the Messiah in the Old Testament. He was ‘Despised and rejected of men’ (Isaiah 53:3); ‘Hated without a cause’ (Psalm 69:4; ‘Led as a lamb to the slaughter’ (Isaiah 53:7); His hands and feet were pierced (Psalm 22:16); He was forsaken by God (Psalm 22:1); He was ‘numbered with the transgressors’ (Isaiah 53:12); His clothes were distributed by lot (Psalm 22:18); He was mocked by passers-by (Psalm 109:25), taunted because God did not deliver Him (Psalm 22:7) and, finally, given vinegar to drink (John 19:28; Psalm 69:21). Indeed, there remained a few prophesies concerning Him that could only be fulfilled after His death, such as the piercing of His side (Zech 12:10), His bones not being broken (Psalm 34:20) and His being placed in a rich man’s grave (Isaiah 53:9), but all that needed to be done before His death had now been done and so, ‘When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit (v30). Note that it was He who gave up His spirit; no one can kill God. “Therefore My father loves Me, because I lay down My lifew that In may take it up again. No one takes it from Me but I lay it down of Myself” (John 10:17-18). Having fulfilled all the prophesies, He dismissed His Spirit.

2. On the cross we see the completion of all His sufferings. We are told that all His life our Saviour was ‘A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief,’ He declared, “I am afflicted and ready to die from My youth up” (Psalm 88:15). From His earliest days, the shadow of the cross hung over Him. In His conversation with Nicodemus He spoke that, “the Son of Man must be lifted up” (John 3:14) and again, ‘“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all peoples to Myself.” This He said, signifying by what death He would die’ (John 12:32-33). When Peter confessed that He was indeed the Christ, ‘From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things’ (Matt 16:21). On the mount of transfiguration, He was speaking with Moses and Elijah, ‘Of His decease which He was about to accomplish (Gk. teleo) at Jerusalem’ (Luke 9:31). The cross was always before Him, and though He naturally shrank from it as a Man, yet He pressed steadily on towards it (Luke 9:51; John 18:11). “Shall I not drink the cup which My father has given Me?” And drink it He did, right down to the dregs. His physical sufferings must have been immense, but they were as nothing compared to the spiritual and mental tortures that God laid upon Him. All the sins of His people, all our wickedness and vileness, were laid upon His sinless shoulders (2Cor 5:21); He became the very epitome of sin. And the Father turned away. The Lord Jesus had said, “Yet I am not alone, because the Father is always with Me’ (John 16:32). But on the cross the Father, who cannot look upon wickedness (Hab 1:13) had turned away from Him, and the sun had darkened and the weight of sin upon Him became intolerable, and He cried out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

But now, the hours of darkness have passed, atonement has been made. “It is finished!” His sufferings are completed.

3. On the cross we see the purpose of His coming attained. Before the Lord Jesus came to earth- indeed, before the very foundation of the world- He had been given a task by the Father. “Behold I come; in the scroll of the book it is written of Me, I delight to do Your will, O My God” (Psalm 40:8). As a boy of twelve He told His earthly parents, “Don’t you know that I must be about My Father’s business?” At the start of His ministry on earth, He declared, “The works My Father has given Me to finish, these I do” (John 5:36). Under the shadow of the cross He told His Father, “I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work You have given Me to do” (John 17:4). There on the cross, the divinely-given task was achieved. The Father’s will was done. ‘Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief’ (Isaiah 53:10). The Pharisees, the priests, Pilate, Herod, the Roman soldiers, they all performed their wicked parts in the death of our Lord; yet they only did what God’s own counsel had decreed before ever time was (Acts 4:28). The Lord Jesus performed what the Father had ordained, and there on the cross, it was completed.

4. On the Cross we can see the accomplishment of the Atonement. ‘For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost’ (Matt 18:11). The Lord Jesus came, above all other things, to save. We owe a debt that we cannot possibly pay- a debt of righteousness which we do not possess. We need a Mediator to come between us and an offended God; we need a city of refuge to which we can run; we need an ark to shelter us from the waves of God’s righteous anger against sin; an advocate to plead our cause before God and to satisfy His outraged justice; we need a robe of perfect righteousness to cover all our sins, a surety to pay our debts on our behalf. The Lord Jesus is all these things for us. He has come between us and God’s justice. He is our refuge, our Surety who has paid the last farthing of what we owe. Tetelestai. ‘It has been paid.’ He is our covering for sin and He is our great High Priest who has offered the one perfect sacrifice for sin, acceptable to God. It is finished.
[conitued]

 

[Martin Marprelate]

[continued from previous post]

5. On the Cross we can see the end of all our sins. ‘And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all’ (Isaiah 53:6). If my iniquities have been laid upon Christ they are no longer on me. To be sure, there is still sin in me for I still carry the relic of my old Adamic nature and In will do until I die and shed this old body forever, but there is no more sin on me. I am no longer under condemnation. Why not? Because someone else has borne my punishment; someone else has taken the blame. ‘[He] Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree’ (1Peter 2:24). It is a principle of the law that you can only be punished once for the same offence. If someone else has taken my punishment, I am no longer under its penalty. If someone has taken on my debt I am no longer liable to pay it. On the Day of Atonement, the High Priest placed his hands upon a live goat, symbolically transferring to it all the sins of the Israelites, before releasing it into the desert. This looked forward to the day when God the Father would lay all our sins upon the Lord Jesus Christ and He would take them away. But what of future sins? Will I still incur the guilt of these? By no means! This is the wonder of the atonement- not only are our sins laid upon Christ, but His perfect obedience and righteousness are credited to us who believe. ‘For He has made Him who know no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him’ (2Cor 5:21. cf. also Rom 5:19; 1Cor 1:30).

An anonymous writer of the early Christian era expresses the wonder of the atonement so well.

‘He Himself took upon Him our sins, Himself gave His own Son as a ransom for us…….For what could cover our sins but His righteousness? In whom was it possible for us, lawless and impious as we were, to be justified, save only in the Son of God? Oh, sweet exchange and unsearchable act of creation…..that the lawlessness of many should be hidden in the One righteous, and the righteousness of one should justify many who were lawless!’ (Epistle to Diognetus, IX).

So when God, as Judge, looks upon believers, He sees no sin in His people, but only the perfect righteousness of Christ. As Father, of course, He still sees our failings and lovingly corrects them, but as Judge, He sees none. ‘Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more’ (Heb 10:17). Christ has taken them away forever. ‘For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us’ (Psalm 103:11-12). Tetelestai. It is finished. It is the end of all our sins.

6. On the cross we see the fulfilment of tha Law’s requirements. ‘The law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good’ Rom 7:12).The fault is not in the law but in sinful man who cannot keep it. Yet the law must be kept, and kept by a man, so that it might be honoured and magnified, and its giver vindicated. ‘To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus’ (Rom 3:26. Cf. also 8:3-4) Christ has lived the life of perfect righteousness and obedience that we cannot live; he has fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law, and so have we, in Him.

Perhaps some personal testimony will be helpful here. My father was a difficult man, and we had a very uneasy relationship punctuated by some blazing rows. I can remember thinking to myself, “Why doesn’t the old fool shut up and leave me alone?” Then he was gone; carried away by a heart attack, long before I became a Christian. There was no time to say goodbye, much less apologize. How then can I keep Exodus 20:12 which bids me ‘Honour your father and mother’? It is no good trying to keep just the other nine commandments, even if I were able. James 2:10 tells me, ‘For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.’ Praise His name, Jesus Christ has come to my rescue. ‘Then He went down with [His parents] and came to Nazareth and was obedient to them’ (Luke 2:51). He has kept the law in my stead, and paid the penalty for my failure on the cross. It is finished. The law’s requirements are fulfilled.

7. Finally, on the cross we see, by the eye of faith, the defeat of Satan. The death of our Lord, that which appeared to be the Satan’s greatest victory, was in fact his death-knell. ‘For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil’ (1John 2:8). The work of the devil was to plunge the world into sin and death and corruption. Christ’s work was to redeem a people from the great wreck of mankind, to take away the curse on the earth so that a restored and renewed people might live with God forever in a new heavens and a new earth (2Peter 3:13).

Satan is defeated and it happened at the cross. ‘inasmuch as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil’ (Heb 2:14). No longer has Satan any claim on us. We don’t work for him any more (Rom 6:16-18). We are now the willing servants of the Lord Jesus Christ and we delight to do His will (Psalm 40:6-8). Tetelestai. It is finished. Satan’s power is broken and the day will come when it will be ended completely forever. In the meantime we are told, ‘Resist the devil and he will flee from you’ (James 4:7). He must, for our new Master is stronger than he.

We rest upon a finished work. ‘There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus’ (Rom 8:1). There is no more to do- nothing we can do to achieve salvation. “Come to Me all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matt 11:28). Are you burdened, trying to earn your way to salvation? Come to Christ and rest. Then rise up to serve Him, not because you must but because you may; because Christ invites to share in His glorious victory and to tell the good news to others.

[Adapted from a sermon first preached almost 15 years ago]

 

[Reformed]

The "it" in John 19:30 refers to all things promised and thus fulfilled in Jesus. There was nothing left for the Son of God to do except to take up His life on the third day, but even that can be implied in the passage because, after all, it is finished!

 

[Zaatar71]

[continued from previous post]

5. On the Cross we can see the end of all our sins. ‘And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all’ (Isaiah 53:6). If my iniquities have been laid upon Christ they are no longer on me. To be sure, there is still sin in me for I still carry the relic of my old Adamic nature and In will do until I die and shed this old body forever, but there is no more sin on me. I am no longer under condemnation. Why not? Because someone else has borne my punishment; someone else has taken the blame. ‘[He] Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree’ (1Peter 2:24). It is a principle of the law that you can only be punished once for the same offence. If someone else has taken my punishment, I am no longer under its penalty. If someone has taken on my debt I am no longer liable to pay it. On the Day of Atonement, the High Priest placed his hands upon a live goat, symbolically transferring to it all the sins of the Israelites, before releasing it into the desert. This looked forward to the day when God the Father would lay all our sins upon the Lord Jesus Christ and He would take them away. But what of future sins? Will I still incur the guilt of these? By no means! This is the wonder of the atonement- not only are our sins laid upon Christ, but His perfect obedience and righteousness are credited to us who believe. ‘For He has made Him who know no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him’ (2Cor 5:21. cf. also Rom 5:19; 1Cor 1:30).

An anonymous writer of the early Christian era expresses the wonder of the atonement so well.

‘He Himself took upon Him our sins, Himself gave His own Son as a ransom for us…….For what could cover our sins but His righteousness? In whom was it possible for us, lawless and impious as we were, to be justified, save only in the Son of God? Oh, sweet exchange and unsearchable act of creation…..that the lawlessness of many should be hidden in the One righteous, and the righteousness of one should justify many who were lawless!’ (Epistle to Diognetus, IX).

So when God, as Judge, looks upon believers, He sees no sin in His people, but only the perfect righteousness of Christ. As Father, of course, He still sees our failings and lovingly corrects them, but as Judge, He sees none. ‘Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more’ (Heb 10:17). Christ has taken them away forever. ‘For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us’ (Psalm 103:11-12). Tetelestai. It is finished. It is the end of all our sins.

6. On the cross we see the fulfilment of tha Law’s requirements. ‘The law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good’ Rom 7:12).The fault is not in the law but in sinful man who cannot keep it. Yet the law must be kept, and kept by a man, so that it might be honoured and magnified, and its giver vindicated. ‘To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus’ (Rom 3:26. Cf. also 8:3-4) Christ has lived the life of perfect righteousness and obedience that we cannot live; he has fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law, and so have we, in Him.

Perhaps some personal testimony will be helpful here. My father was a difficult man, and we had a very uneasy relationship punctuated by some blazing rows. I can remember thinking to myself, “Why doesn’t the old fool shut up and leave me alone?” Then he was gone; carried away by a heart attack, long before I became a Christian. There was no time to say goodbye, much less apologize. How then can I keep Exodus 20:12 which bids me ‘Honour your father and mother’? It is no good trying to keep just the other nine commandments, even if I were able. James 2:10 tells me, ‘For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.’ Praise His name, Jesus Christ has come to my rescue. ‘Then He went down with [His parents] and came to Nazareth and was obedient to them’ (Luke 2:51). He has kept the law in my stead, and paid the penalty for my failure on the cross. It is finished. The law’s requirements are fulfilled.

7. Finally, on the cross we see, by the eye of faith, the defeat of Satan. The death of our Lord, that which appeared to be the Satan’s greatest victory, was in fact his death-knell. ‘For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil’ (1John 2:8). The work of the devil was to plunge the world into sin and death and corruption. Christ’s work was to redeem a people from the great wreck of mankind, to take away the curse on the earth so that a restored and renewed people might live with God forever in a new heavens and a new earth (2Peter 3:13).

Satan is defeated and it happened at the cross. ‘inasmuch as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil’ (Heb 2:14). No longer has Satan any claim on us. We don’t work for him any more (Rom 6:16-18). We are now the willing servants of the Lord Jesus Christ and we delight to do His will (Psalm 40:6-8). Tetelestai. It is finished. Satan’s power is broken and the day will come when it will be ended completely forever. In the meantime we are told, ‘Resist the devil and he will flee from you’ (James 4:7). He must, for our new Master is stronger than he.

We rest upon a finished work. ‘There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus’ (Rom 8:1). There is no more to do- nothing we can do to achieve salvation. “Come to Me all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matt 11:28). Are you burdened, trying to earn your way to salvation? Come to Christ and rest. Then rise up to serve Him, not because you must but because you may; because Christ invites to share in His glorious victory and to tell the good news to others.

[Adapted from a sermon first preached almost 15 years ago]

This is at the heart of the cross and understood by all who know and love the truth. These posts have clearly proved the truth of Psa. Thanks for taking the time to put forth the truth that all believing Christians have rejoiced in!

 

[JonC]

There are seven things that we may see finished, paid, fulfilled or accomplished on the cross.

1. On the cross we may see the fulfilment of all the prophesies which had been written of the Messiah in the Old Testament. He was ‘Despised and rejected of men’ (Isaiah 53:3); ‘Hated without a cause’ (Psalm 69:4; ‘Led as a lamb to the slaughter’ (Isaiah 53:7); His hands and feet were pierced (Psalm 22:16); He was forsaken by God (Psalm 22:1); He was ‘numbered with the transgressors’ (Isaiah 53:12); His clothes were distributed by lot (Psalm 22:18); He was mocked by passers-by (Psalm 109:25), taunted because God did not deliver Him (Psalm 22:7) and, finally, given vinegar to drink (John 19:28; Psalm 69:21). Indeed, there remained a few prophesies concerning Him that could only be fulfilled after His death, such as the piercing of His side (Zech 12:10), His bones not being broken (Psalm 34:20) and His being placed in a rich man’s grave (Isaiah 53:9), but all that needed to be done before His death had now been done and so, ‘When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit (v30). Note that it was He who gave up His spirit; no one can kill God. “Therefore My father loves Me, because I lay down My lifew that In may take it up again. No one takes it from Me but I lay it down of Myself” (John 10:17-18). Having fulfilled all the prophesies, He dismissed His Spirit.

2. On the cross we see the completion of all His sufferings. We are told that all His life our Saviour was ‘A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief,’ He declared, “I am afflicted and ready to die from My youth up” (Psalm 88:15). From His earliest days, the shadow of the cross hung over Him. In His conversation with Nicodemus He spoke that, “the Son of Man must be lifted up” (John 3:14) and again, ‘“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all peoples to Myself.” This He said, signifying by what death He would die’ (John 12:32-33). When Peter confessed that He was indeed the Christ, ‘From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things’ (Matt 16:21). On the mount of transfiguration, He was speaking with Moses and Elijah, ‘Of His decease which He was about to accomplish (Gk. teleo) at Jerusalem’ (Luke 9:31). The cross was always before Him, and though He naturally shrank from it as a Man, yet He pressed steadily on towards it (Luke 9:51; John 18:11). “Shall I not drink the cup which My father has given Me?” And drink it He did, right down to the dregs. His physical sufferings must have been immense, but they were as nothing compared to the spiritual and mental tortures that God laid upon Him. All the sins of His people, all our wickedness and vileness, were laid upon His sinless shoulders (2Cor 5:21); He became the very epitome of sin. And the Father turned away. The Lord Jesus had said, “Yet I am not alone, because the Father is always with Me’ (John 16:32). But on the cross the Father, who cannot look upon wickedness (Hab 1:13) had turned away from Him, and the sun had darkened and the weight of sin upon Him became intolerable, and He cried out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

But now, the hours of darkness have passed, atonement has been made. “It is finished!” His sufferings are completed.

3. On the cross we see the purpose of His coming attained. Before the Lord Jesus came to earth- indeed, before the very foundation of the world- He had been given a task by the Father. “Behold I come; in the scroll of the book it is written of Me, I delight to do Your will, O My God” (Psalm 40:8). As a boy of twelve He told His earthly parents, “Don’t you know that I must be about My Father’s business?” At the start of His ministry on earth, He declared, “The works My Father has given Me to finish, these I do” (John 5:36). Under the shadow of the cross He told His Father, “I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work You have given Me to do” (John 17:4). There on the cross, the divinely-given task was achieved. The Father’s will was done. ‘Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief’ (Isaiah 53:10). The Pharisees, the priests, Pilate, Herod, the Roman soldiers, they all performed their wicked parts in the death of our Lord; yet they only did what God’s own counsel had decreed before ever time was (Acts 4:28). The Lord Jesus performed what the Father had ordained, and there on the cross, it was completed.

4. On the Cross we can see the accomplishment of the Atonement. ‘For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost’ (Matt 18:11). The Lord Jesus came, above all other things, to save. We owe a debt that we cannot possibly pay- a debt of righteousness which we do not possess. We need a Mediator to come between us and an offended God; we need a city of refuge to which we can run; we need an ark to shelter us from the waves of God’s righteous anger against sin; an advocate to plead our cause before God and to satisfy His outraged justice; we need a robe of perfect righteousness to cover all our sins, a surety to pay our debts on our behalf. The Lord Jesus is all these things for us. He has come between us and God’s justice. He is our refuge, our Surety who has paid the last farthing of what we owe. Tetelestai. ‘It has been paid.’ He is our covering for sin and He is our great High Priest who has offered the one perfect sacrifice for sin, acceptable to God. It is finished.
[conitued]

A lot of that is biblical (obviously a lot if it is speculation and reading into the text). But it looks like what you emphasize by putting it in bold is biblical so it helps clarify.

I like that you emphasize we need (in the present) Christ to mediate for us when we sin. Many who hold your theory believe our sins were forgiven beforehand. That part is refreshing.

 

[JonC]

@Martin Marprelate

I do not know if the other thread is closed (it was getting long). I still believe it is important for you to explain how you get from God's words to your conclusions.

If God removed our sins and put them on Jesus, why did God have to punish our sins?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@Martin Marprelate

I do not know if the other thread is closed (it was getting long). I still believe it is important for you to explain how you get from God's words to your conclusions.

If God removed our sins and put them on Jesus, why did God have to punish our sins?

I have answered this so many times. It was what God did. 'He was pierced for our transgressions.' Pierced by whom? By God (Isaiah 53:10 etc.).
If you only look at the text of Scripture as you claim, why are you even asking the question?
But to give the answer once again, if He had not done so, our sins would have gone unpunished, and God would not have been 'just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'

 

[JonC]

I have answered this so many times. It was what God did. 'He was pierced for our transgressions.' Pierced by whom? By God (Isaiah 53:10 etc.).
If you only look at the text of Scripture as you claim, why are you even asking the question?
But to give the answer once again, if He had not done so, our sins would have gone unpunished, and God would not have been 'just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'

I know that Satan "crushes" His "heel", that He died under the powers of Satan (death) as God told me that the one who has the power of death is Satan, and at the hands of wicked man by the predetermined plan of God.

But where do you get the idea that God pierced Jesus? This is not what Isaiah 53:10 says at all.



What would it mean if God recreated us in the image of Christ so that on the day of judgment we were righteous, not guilty, but the sins of the "old man" never punished?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I know that Satan "crushes" His "heel", that He died under the powers of Satan (death) as God told me that the one who has the power of death is Satan, and at the hands of wicked man by the predetermined plan of God.

There is no text that says that the devil killed the Lord Jesus, much less that he pierced Him. And Satan having the power of death refers to his bringing death into the world through his seduction of Adam and Eve. Satan can do nothing without the permission of God, as Job could tell you (Job 1:12; 2:6). If Satan can go round killing people without God's say-so, then God is no longer God. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will.

But where do you get the idea that God pierced Jesus? This is not what Isaiah 53:10 says at all.

You are clutching at straws. It was God who 'put Him to grief' and made His soul an offering for sin, and since our Lord died on the cross it must have been God who pierced Him. We are told that 'Truly, against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel [no mention of Satan] were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined to be done.'

What would it mean if God recreated us in the image of Christ so that on the day of judgment we were righteous, not guilty, but the sins of the "old man" never punished?

It would mean that sin was not punished and that therefore God was not a just judge, and also that Christ died for nothing.

 

[Zaatar71]

There is no text that says that the devil killed the Lord Jesus, much less that he pierced Him. And Satan having the power of death refers to his bringing death into the world through his seduction of Adam and Eve. Satan can do nothing without the permission of God, as Job could tell you (Job 1:12; 2:6). If Satan can go round killing people without God's say-so, then God is no longer God. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will.

You are clutching at straws. It was God who 'put Him to grief' and made His soul an offering for sin, and since our Lord died on the cross it must have been God who pierced Him. We are told that 'Truly, against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel [no mention of Satan] were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined to be done.'

It would mean that sin was not punished and that therefore God was not a just judge, and also that Christ died for nothing.

The poster JohnC is drifting further away from Biblical reality. You have offered him an abundance of clear instruction, that he seems unable to process well. Your solid posting I am sure is instructive to others that read the interaction.

 

[kyredneck]

There is no text that says that the devil killed the Lord Jesus, much less that he pierced Him.

<sigh> ...when crucifixion was precisely how the serpent bruised His heel.

 

[kyredneck]

Your solid posting I am sure is instructive to others that read the interaction.

@Martin Marprelate's stance that Satan had nothing to do with the crucifixion is heretical. He has been thoroughly refuted on this topic.

From some 'SOLID' PST folks:

Why Did Satan Crucify Jesus?

 

[JonC]

The poster JohnC is drifting further away from Biblical reality. You have offered him an abundance of clear instruction, that he seems unable to process well. Your solid posting I am sure is instructive to others that read the interaction.

It does not matter where I drift, if I am wrong. That does not change the fact you borrow a beluef you do not understand.

When asked to explain how you get from God's words to your conclusions all you do is attack people. You blow smoke hoping people will ignore that you never account for the beluefs you borrow.

If I am wrong that does not make you right.



If on judgment day God has made us new creations conformed to the image of Christ, we have died to sin and are perfected in Him, in whom there is no condemnation, and God judges us as righteous BUT God never punished the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists, what would be the issue?

 

[JonC]

There is no text that says that the devil killed the Lord Jesus, much less that he pierced Him. And Satan having the power of death refers to his bringing death into the world through his seduction of Adam and Eve. Satan can do nothing without the permission of God, as Job could tell you (Job 1:12; 2:6). If Satan can go round killing people without God's say-so, then God is no longer God. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will.

You are clutching at straws. It was God who 'put Him to grief' and made His soul an offering for sin, and since our Lord died on the cross it must have been God who pierced Him. We are told that 'Truly, against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel [no mention of Satan] were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined to be done.'

It would mean that sin was not punished and that therefore God was not a just judge, and also that Christ died for nothing.

I did not say the devil killed Jesus. He laid down His own life.

I said Jesus died and Satan is the one who has the power of death. That is in the biblical text.

The biblical text tells us that wicked men pierced Jesus.

Nobody has denied that the cross was God's predetermined plan, or that Jesus was obedient even to death on a cross.

What is NOT in the biblical text is that God pierced Jesus and that Jesus experienced God's wrath.

Rather than trying to find fault in my understanding (I fully expect my understanding not to be perfect) why not simply answer for your belief?

If on judgment day God has made us new creations conformed to the image of Christ, we have died to sin and are perfected in Him, in whom there is no condemnation, and God judges us as righteous BUT God never punished the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists, what would be the issue?

 

[Paleouss]

@kyredneck @JonC @Martin Marprelate @Zaatar71
Greetings all. I have come late to this party and don't really have anyone I want to specifically address. My objective, as always, is God's truth. Wherever that may lead me.

I do find this in the Holy Scripture...

(Heb 9:15 NKJV) 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Here is how I understand this verse...
1. Jesus Christ became "the Mediator of the new covenant".
2. He became this Mediator "by means of death".
3. This death was "for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant".

In other words, Christ took on death for the transgressions of the law (the law-unfulfilled is the first covenant). This verse, Hebrews 9:15, makes sense when compared to the Holy Scripture that says that "the letter kills" (2Cor 3:6) and the commandments of the law-unfulfilled "brings death" (Rom 7:9-10).

Further, it is the devil that has "the power of death" (Heb 2:14) and it is "through death He might destroy him" (Heb 2:14).
1. The devil has and uses the power of death.
2. Christ is to take on this power of death that the devil uses, to destroy the devil.
3. The devil bruises the heel of the Seed with his power, i.e., death. But God uses what was intended by the devil as evil for good.

It seems reasonable to equate the bruising of the Seed's heel with the death of Jesus on the cross.

Of course, the Holy Scripture also says that the law brings wrath. That would also would need to be reconciled by each parson.

(Rom 4:15 NKJV) 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law [there is] no transgression.
(John 3:36 NKJV) 36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
(Rom 2:5 NKJV) 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
(1Th 1:10 NKJV) 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, [even] Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
(Rom 5:9 NKJV) 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

 

[Zaatar71]

It does not matter where I drift, if I am wrong. That does not change the fact you borrow a beluef you do not understand.

Your condescending , unkind posts, have no value. You have discredited your self shamefully. I do not worry about what you suggest about me, I know who I am In Christ.I am fully capable of responding to false teaching and insults that you offer.I prefer to interact with honest posters.

When asked to explain how you get from God's words to your conclusions all you do is attack people.

I will react against error and those who hate God and His word. Your keyboard seems to be ground zero for personal attacks. How you respond the the pastor martin is disgraceful.

You blow smoke hoping people will ignore that you never account for the beluefs you borrow.

More insults from you chanhe nothing. No other leader on this site, does such shameful posting.

If I am wrong that does not make you right.

You are wrong everyday. there is no If.

If on judgment day God has made us new creations conformed to the image of Christ, we have died to sin and are perfected in Him, in whom there is no condemnation, and God judges us as righteous BUT God never punished the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists, what would be the issue?

I will let you invent your novel Ideas on that. Your posts are not helpful to anyone seeking truth. Being condescending to others daily does not help.

 

[Mikoo]

The poster JohnC is drifting further away from Biblical reality. You have offered him an abundance of clear instruction, that he seems unable to process well. Your solid posting I am sure is instructive to others that read the interaction.

It seems the more JonC responds, the more proof he provides of what you wrote. IMHO

 

[JonC]

Your condescending , unkind posts, have no value. You have discredited your self shamefully. I do not worry about what you suggest about me, I know who I am In Christ.I am fully capable of responding to false teaching and insults that you offer.I prefer to interact with honest posters.

I will react against error and those who hate God and His word. Your keyboard seems to be ground zero for personal attacks. How you respond the the pastor martin is disgraceful.

More insults from you chanhe nothing. No other leader on this site, does such shameful posting.

You are wrong everyday. there is no If.

I will let you invent your novel Ideas on that. Your posts are not helpful to anyone seeking truth. Being condescending to others daily does not help.

You are again merely insulting to avoid the fact that you have not explained how you get from God's words to your conclusions.

If on judgment day God has made us new creations conformed to the image of Christ, we have died to sin and are perfected in Him, in whom there is no condemnation, and God judges us as righteous BUT God never punished the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists, what would be the issue?

 

[JonC]

It seems the more JonC responds, the more proof he provides of what you wrote. IMHO

Except JonC has just been posting that people who hold theories that are not in God's Word need to explain how they get from God's words to their conclusions.

How do you get there?

If on judgment day God has made us new creations conformed to the image of Christ, we have died to sin and are perfected in Him, in whom there is no condemnation, and God judges us as righteous BUT God never punished the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists, what would be the issue?

 

[JonC]

Look....MY REQUEST IS SIMPLE:

God's words say one thing. Several here believe His words teach another thing.

We ALWAYS need to be able to explain how we get from A to B (how we get from the biblical text to what we think the Bible teaches).

@Zaatar71 , @Martin Marprelate and @Mikoo .... How do you get from the words that come from God your understanding?


If on judgment day God has made us new creations conformed to the image of Christ, we have died to sin and are perfected in Him, in whom there is no condemnation, and God judges us as righteous BUT God never punished the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists, what would be the issue?