Historic Premillennialism and Daniel’s 70 Weeks

[John of Japan]

Not in the least.

Your verse follows 20:4, which depicts those in Heaven Reigning with Jesus for one thousand years as being exactly where it says they are: Heaven. No mention or suggestion or allusion to anything out the 'Earth', anywhere, for a reason; Jesus' Reign is taking place in Heaven with those John said "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their .foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

You have given no contextual evidence that the events of the 1000 years take place in Heaven. You are grasping at straws with your idea that the 1000 years take place in Heaven. However, I have many reasons from the immediate context that it has to take place on earth:

19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. (KJV)—Since there is no killing in Heaven, this takes place on the earth. This event is immediately followed by the 1000 years, but there is no indication in the text of a change in location to Heaven for the 1000 years.

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. (KJV)—The angel comes down from Heaven, clearly indicating that the following actions will take place on the earth where Satan is active.

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (KJV)—There is no indication here that now the action has moved to Heaven. There is no reason these believers cannot be resurrected on Earth, just like Jesus.

20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (KJV)—Why would the Word have to say that Christ ruled in Heaven? It’s his place! That would be like saying, “John lives in his home.” The meaning is plain. Christ rules for 1000 years on earth, where Satan previously ruled.

20:7-8 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (KJV)—This takes place at the end of the 1000 years, and it very clearly happens on the earth. It cannot be possible for Satan to have a rebellion in Heaven, since he has been cast out of there (Rev. 12:9).

"I contend that present Christian teaching concerning the last things relies too much on the belief of a future earthly millennial kingdom. Therefore, it may be profitable to see whether the idea that the thousand years mentioned by John refers to a future kingdom is consistent with what the NT , and Revelation in particular, teaches on Satan's binding, the resurrection, and the reign of the saints.

"Additionally, we should explore the clues provided by Revelation's literary framework, style, and structure, as those arising from the biblical use of the expression "one thousand years"...

"For a proper understanding of what this controversial passage says, it may be profitable first to note what it fails to mention. The reason for this unusual approach is that, believe it or not, many interpreters put into this text a lot of things that simply are not there. They assume, usually, based on a preconceived framework, that these things are implicit.

"I will not challenge, for the time being, the validity of this assumption, but simply point out that the following things are not actually mentioned:

"[1] Location. We are not told if the reign John saw took place in a heavenly or earthly realm.​

"[2] A temple. In fact, no building at all is mentioned.

"[3] Sacrifices. No worship is described.

"[4] Jerusalem. Neither heavenly nor earthly Jerusalem are mentioned.

"[5] Israel. Any mention of the land of Israel (Eretz Israel) is lacking

"[6] The Jewish people. Not a single Jewish name, no tribe at all, is mentioned.

"[7] The Gentile nations. They are not in sight in this part of John's vision.

"[8] Earthly life conditions. Peaceful living, the birth of babies, house building, harvesting and the like are conspicuously absent.

"Therefore, those Christians who believe that this text depicts an earthly kingdom are forced to supply some or all of these things to John's succinct description. They usually draw plenty of material from OT prophecies that speak of a glorious future Davidic kingdom. Many of those who embrace this approach adhere to it because they believe it to be required by a literal interpretation of the Bible.

"However, a little reflection will show that this approach falls short of a so-called "consistent literalism." Some early Church Fathers -most notably Irenaeus of Lyon- thought that here an earthly rule of the Church after Christ's second coming is envisaged. No early orthodox millennialist entertained for a minute that the thousand years would be a Jewish kingdom. Therefore, they had to apply all OT prophecies not to Israel as a nation, but to the Christian church.

"On the other hand, some current-day exegetes start from the basic assumption that prophecies addressed to Israel must be fulfilled physically (although they call it a literal fulfillment, actually a physical, as opposed to a spiritual, fulfillment is intended). Since this did not happen in the past, these prophecies must be fulfilled in the future, and they find no other time for this but the thousand years of Revelation 20. Some relevant prophecies in this regard are found in Isaiah (9, 11, 24-27, 35, 65-66), Ezekiel 37-48; Zechariah 12,14,etc.

"However, to apply all these prophecies to the one thousand years period mentioned in Revelation 20, some significant concessions have to be made.

"This is because these prophecies depict the glorious future of Israel with a language clearly resembling OT culture, to wit:​

"[1] The kingdom will be established and kept by sheer power.

"[2] The nations will serve Israel

"[3] Transportation will require ancient means, like asses, horses, and chariots.

"[4] Weapons will be old-fashioned (spears, swords, shields, and the like).

"[5] Sacrifices will be reestablished as under Moses' Law

"[6] New Moons, sabbath day,s and all OT feasts will be celebrated again.

"For belief in a literal earthly kingdom to be sustained, at least some of these things must be understood in figurative, or at least typical ways. But in so doing, the very same principle on which this view is based is undermined. Those who believe in a future Jewish millennium cannot have it both ways." The Thousand Years of Revelation 20

​

All of this from some medical doctor in Argentina who has no formal theological training has no meaning for me. I suggest you should use your own knowledge and wisdom for debate on the BB, not some random dude.

 

[John of Japan]

Hey, it was the 90’s.

Ha! You think the '90's were weird...well they were, but I grew up in the '60's!

 

[John of Japan]

Thank you. I am told that yes, almost everybody before Augustine thought like this
(excluding Clement of Alexandria and Origen).

I have read a bit of George Eldon Ladd as well as a A Case for Historic Premillennialism (which is more of a collection of eclectic essays than it is an actual case for historic premillennialism). I am having a very hard time finding a resource that is helpful to questions that I have like the one this thread starts with.

Okay then, to get back to your OP, in my reading and research, the term Historic Premillennialism is a pretty broad term, including the early church fathers as well as more modern non-dispensational theologians such as Ladd and my grandfather, John R. Rice. Rice opposed dispensationalism for various reasons, but was pre-trib and pre-mil. On the other hand, men like Ladd may be mid- or post-trib. (I disremember what he is--post-trib?)

Another is Millard Erickson, whose systematic theology we teach from in our seminary. I believe he is post-trib. He wrote about historic pre-mil: "The view that we today term premillennialism has a long history having roots in the early church. Probably it was the dominant belief during the apostolic period, wen Christians believed strongly in the approaching end of the world and the parousia of Jesus Christ" (A Basic Guide to Eschatology, p. 94).

Concerning the 70 weeks of Daniel, Rice interprets it much like dispensationalism in his book The Second Coming of Christ in Daniel.

 

[JesusFan]

Perhaps I can post more later, but here is the basic answer. Historic premillennialism was the doctrine of the early church until Augustine, almost without exception, and that is why it is called that. In modern times it is applied to non-dispensational premil folk such as my grandfather was, but he did apply the 70 weeks, etc., like dispensational premil.

My understanding is that we and Dispy Premil theology would pretty agree except on the timing of the Rapture event

 

[John of Japan]

My understanding is that we and Dispy Premil theology would pretty agree except on the timing of the Rapture event

By "we" are you saying that your position is historic premil?

 

[JesusFan]

By "we" are you saying that your position is historic premil?

Yes

 

[Mr. Lunt]

Okay then, to get back to your OP, in my reading and research, the term Historic Premillennialism is a pretty broad term, including the early church fathers as well as more modern non-dispensational theologians such as Ladd and my grandfather, John R. Rice. Rice opposed dispensationalism for various reasons, but was pre-trib and pre-mil. On the other hand, men like Ladd may be mid- or post-trib. (I disremember what he is--post-trib?)

Another is Millard Erickson, whose systematic theology we teach from in our seminary. I believe he is post-trib. He wrote about historic pre-mil: "The view that we today term premillennialism has a long history having roots in the early church. Probably it was the dominant belief during the apostolic period, wen Christians believed strongly in the approaching end of the world and the parousia of Jesus Christ" (A Basic Guide to Eschatology, p. 94).

Concerning the 70 weeks of Daniel, Rice interprets it much like dispensationalism in his book The Second Coming of Christ in Daniel.

I’ll have to look up those resources. Thank you for the recommendations.

 

[Mr. Lunt]

Yes

Do you have any resources that you recommend for people wanting to learn more about your perspective?

 

[Mr. Lunt]

Ha! You think the '90's were weird...well they were, but I grew up in the '60's!

What was the 60’s equivalent of veggietales? Some sort of Bible themed muppets knockoff?

 

[Tea]

What was the 60’s equivalent of veggietales? Some sort of Bible themed muppets knockoff?

Perhaps Davey and Goliath?

 

[John of Japan]

What was the 60’s equivalent of veggietales? Some sort of Bible themed muppets knockoff?

If someone said "muppets knockoff" in the 60's at my high school, someone would have replied, "Yeah, let's go knock off some of them." There was very little in the way of Christian TV and the like.

 

[John of Japan]

All of this from some medical doctor in Argentina who has no formal theological training has no meaning for me. I suggest you should use your own knowledge and wisdom for debate on the BB, not some random dude.

I misspoke. Apparently this man, Fernando D. Saraví, did study theology formally: Fernando Saravi - LOGOI. That doesn't mean I would consider him a goto source for eschatology, though.

 

[JesusFan]

Do you have any resources that you recommend for people wanting to learn more about your perspective?

Some standard accepted works
Core Texts

• A Case for Historic Premillennialism: An Alternative to "Left Behind" Eschatology (2009) edited by Craig L. Blomberg and Sung Wook Chung. This is considered a standard contemporary text that provides an alternative to dispensational premillennialism and includes essays on the biblical, theological, and historical support for the position.
• The Blessed Hope (1956, rev. 1980) by George Eldon Ladd. Ladd was a leading 20th-century scholar on this topic, and this book is a classic defense of the historic premillennial position, particularly concerning the post-tribulation return of Christ.
• The Gospel of the Kingdom (1959) by George Eldon Ladd. This work explores the biblical concept of the Kingdom of God, a central theme in historic premillennial eschatology.
• The Presence of the Future (1996) by George Eldon Ladd. This book further develops Ladd's understanding of the "already/not yet" nature of the Kingdom of God, which informs the historic premil view.
• • The Church and the Tribulation (1973) by Robert Gundry. This book is another key resource from a major scholar that addresses the post-tribulational stance common in historic premillennialism.

Other Relevant Resources

• Historical Premillennialism: A Study in New Testament Eschatology (2023) by Stephen Whitsett. A recent non-fiction work focusing specifically on the New Testament basis for the view.
• The Last Things: An Eschatology For Laymen (1978) by George Eldon Ladd. A more accessible overview of eschatology for a general audience.
• Three Views on the Millennium and Beyond (part of the Zondervan Counterpoints series) edited by Darrell L. Bock. While not exclusively historic premillennial, this work provides a helpful academic comparison of various millennial views, including the historic premil perspective, allowing readers to weigh different arguments.
• The Book of Revelation commentary by Robert H Mounce

 

[Oseas3]

Do you have any resources that you recommend for people wanting to learn more about your perspective?

Besides the Holy Bible, How about -> Pure Bible Forum (and see www.sinaiticus.org )

 

[Oseas3]

Some standard accepted works
Core Texts

• A Case for Historic Premillennialism: An Alternative to "Left Behind" Eschatology (2009) edited by Craig L. Blomberg and Sung Wook Chung. This is considered a standard contemporary text that provides an alternative to dispensational premillennialism and includes essays on the biblical, theological, and historical support for the position.
• The Blessed Hope (1956, rev. 1980) by George Eldon Ladd. Ladd was a leading 20th-century scholar on this topic, and this book is a classic defense of the historic premillennial position, particularly concerning the post-tribulation return of Christ.
• The Gospel of the Kingdom (1959) by George Eldon Ladd. This work explores the biblical concept of the Kingdom of God, a central theme in historic premillennial eschatology.
• The Presence of the Future (1996) by George Eldon Ladd. This book further develops Ladd's understanding of the "already/not yet" nature of the Kingdom of God, which informs the historic premil view.
• • The Church and the Tribulation (1973) by Robert Gundry. This book is another key resource from a major scholar that addresses the post-tribulational stance common in historic premillennialism.

Other Relevant Resources

• Historical Premillennialism: A Study in New Testament Eschatology (2023) by Stephen Whitsett. A recent non-fiction work focusing specifically on the New Testament basis for the view.
• The Last Things: An Eschatology For Laymen (1978) by George Eldon Ladd. A more accessible overview of eschatology for a general audience.
• Three Views on the Millennium and Beyond (part of the Zondervan Counterpoints series) edited by Darrell L. Bock. While not exclusively historic premillennial, this work provides a helpful academic comparison of various millennial views, including the historic premil perspective, allowing readers to weigh different arguments.
• The Book of Revelation commentary by Robert H Mounce

Revelation 11:15-18:
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD (SATANIC WORLD) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.->(Revelation 6:15-17 will fulfill LITERALLY, take a look)


16 And the four and twenty elders,->(REVELATION 4:4->GOD did choose 24 MEN unto which He would reveal His Word-even He Himself-to write the books of the Old Testament, and They already are enthroned around GOD's throne clothed in white raiment and they have on their heads CROWNS of gold), which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty(Revelation 1:8), which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were(will be) angry, and thy WRATH is come,->(Isaiah 26:19-21, take a look, and try to understand), and the time of the dead->(Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16), that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints->(Daniel 7:26-27 combined with 1Corinthians 6:2-3, take a look), and them that fear thy name, small and great;->(Revelation 7:9-17, take a look) and shouldest DESTROY them which destroy the earth.->(The severe PUNISHMENTS and DESTRUCTION of the world of Devil is already starting. -> For now we living through a period of sorrows - Matthew 24:3-8.


Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: For we will DESTROY this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to DESTROY it. => Revelation 20:1-4:->
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 18:2-4
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Our Lord JESUS said:-> He that is of GOD heareth GOD's words: -> Or ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of GOD?

 

[Oseas3]

Celebration of the Lamb's marriage? ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF BABYLON​

Celebration of the Lamb's marriage? ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF BABYLON

According to GOD's Word, what needs to happen first? Exactly what is written in Revelation 18: 1 to 5, i.e. the Judgment of the Great Whore, as follows: 1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. (Note: This...

purebibleforum.com

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

You have given no contextual evidence that the events of the 1000 years take place in Heaven.

Not all of it. I'll give you that here from More than Conquerors, by William Hendriksen: REVELATION 20-22 2. The Reign of the Saints (20: 4-6), pg 193.

It certainly would be better if you had already gained the understanding that each of Revelation's SEVEN VISIONS gives a treatment repeating events, as examples of circumstances which will TAKE PLACE THROUGHOUT THE CHURCH AGE, and each VISION covers the same SPAN and PERIOD OF TIME IN HISTORY, the Time between Jesus' First Coming and His Ascension to Jesus'
Second Coming...believe it or not, that is how Revelation is structured, so we can get the best grasp of what God has 'Revealed'!

"In order to arrive at a proper conception of these verses, we must again go back in our thoughts to the first century AD. Roman persecutions are raging. Martyrs are calmly laying their heads under the executioner’s sword. Paul had already done this; also James. Rather than say, ‘The emperor is Lord’, or drop incense on the altar of a pagan priest as a token of worshipping the emperor, believers confess their Christ even in the midst of the flames and while they are thrown before the wild beasts in the Roman amphitheatres.

"But Christ is not unmindful of His grievously afflicted disciples. He Sustains them in order that they may remain faithful to the end. For that very reason He gives to His sorely-tried Church the Vision of ‘the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus' (1: 2, 9; 6: 9).

John describes these souls—together with those of all departed Christians who had confessed their Lord upon Earth—as Reigning with Jesus in Heaven. He says, in effect, ‘Here below: a few years of suffering: there, in that better land above, they live and reign with Christ a thousand years! ’ What a comfort! Certainly, the sufferings of this Present Time are not worthy to be compared with the Glory which is revealed to the souls of believers Reigning with their Exalted Lord in Heaven!

"In connection with this ‘thousand-year reign’ of verses 4-6 we shall answer three questions. First, where does it take place?

"According to the passage which we are considering it takes place in three places. (i) The thousand year reign occurs where the Thrones are, for we read: ‘And I saw thrones and they sat upon them. ’ Now, according to the entire book of Revelation, the Throne of Christ and of His people is invariably in Heaven (Rev. 1: 4; 3: 21; 4: 2 if.; etc. ).

"(ii) The thousand-year reign also occurs where the disembodied souls of the martyrs are, for we read: ‘And I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus. ’ John sees souls, not bodies.

"John is thinking of souls without bodies, for we read: ‘of them that had been beheaded’. In this entire passage there is not a single word about a resurrection of bodies. The distinction between soul and body is even emphasized: ‘the souls of them that had been beheaded’. (True, the term ‘souls' at times means ‘people’ (e. g. Gn. 46: 27). But in that case you can substitute the term ‘people’ for ‘souls’. Here in Revelation 20 you cannot do so.)

"The souls Reign during this Entire Present Era until Christ’s Second Coming.
"Afterwards, it is no longer the souls that Reign, for then body and soul are together again. Then the saints Reign, not for a limited though lengthy period = represented as "a thousand years"—but ‘forever and ever’ (22: 5).

"(iii) The thousand-year Reign also occurs where Jesus lives, for we read ‘And they lived and reigned with Christ.... ’ The question is, where, according to the Apocalypse, is the Place from which the exalted Mediator Rules the Universe? Where does Jesus Live? Clearly, it is in Heaven. It is in heaven that the Lamb is represented as taking the scroll out of the Hand of Him that Sat on the Throne (Rev. 5). Revelation 12 clearly states that Christ was ‘caught up to God and to His Throne... Therefore, rejoice O Heavens, and ye that dwell therein’.

"We may safely say, therefore, that the thousand-year Reign takes place in Heaven.

"The next question that has to be answered is, what is the character of this Reign? The nature of this Reign may be summarized in four ways as follows. (i) It is judging with Christ. The ransomed souls in Heaven praise Christ for His Righteous Judgments. They constantly sing: ‘True and Righteous are His Judgments. ’

"These souls in Glory are constantly pictured as taking part in all the activities of the Master: a. they sit down with Him in His Throne (3: 21); b. they stand with Him on Mount Zion (cf 14: 1); c. they sing before His throne (cf. 14: 3; 15: 3); d. they shall see His face (cf. Rev. 22: 4; etc. ).

(ii) Those in this Reign are living with Christ: ‘they did live and did Reign’ (see Rev. 7: 9 if·)· In Heaven these souls respond in a perfect manner to a Perfect Environment.

"And what is Life but that? (iii) It is a sharing of Royal Glory with Christ. These souls celebrate the Lamb’s and thus their own Victory. With Him they Reign. All their prayers are answered; all their wishes are constantly fulfilled.

"(iv) This Reign is ‘the First Resurrection’. NOTE: The First Resurrection is the translation of the soul from this sinful earth to God’s Holy Heaven. It is followed at Christ’s Second Coming by the Second Resurrection when the body, too, will be Glorified.

"Our final question is, who participates in this Reign? The answer is simple and easy. First of all, all the souls of the martyrs, ‘those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus’.

"Secondly, all other believers who died in their faith, ‘such as worshipped not the beast’, etc. The rest of the dead, that is, all other men who died, the unbelieving dead, lived not until the thousand-years are finished.

"When that Period is finished, then there is a change. Then they enter ‘the second death’. In other words, they receive Everlasting Punishment: not only as for the soul but now also for the body. The change is not for better but for the worse.

"On the other hand, those who have part in the First Resurrection (NOTE, again: The First Resurrection is the translation of the soul from this sinful earth to God’s Holy Heaven) are Blessed and Holy. Over them the Second Death has no power.

"Not only shall they Reign with Christ, but they shall also Worship God in Christ as priests throughout the thousand-years (Rev. 1: 6, 5:10)."

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. (KJV)—Since there is no killing in Heaven, this takes place on the earth. This event is immediately followed by the 1000 years, but there is no indication in the text of a change in location to Heaven for the 1000 years.

REVELATION 20-22: VICTORY THROUGH CHRIST.
"I. FROM THE BINDING OF SATAN TO THE FINAL JUDGMENT", pg 184.

"REVELATION 19: 19 ff. carried us to the very end of history, to the day of final judgment. With Revelation 20 we return to the beginning of our present dispensation.

"Thus, the connection between chapters 19 and 20 is similar to that between chapters 11 and 12. Revelation 11: 18 announces ‘the time of the dead to be judged’. The end has arrived. Yet with Revelation 12 we return to the beginning of the New Testament period, for Revelation 12: 5 describes the birth, ascension, and coronation of our Lord.

"Similarly, with chapter 20 we begin anew. Now, there is a very striking parallel between chapters 11-14 on the one hand, and chapter 20 on the other. Both divide history into the same periods, though the approach differs. Observe the parallel.

"REVELATION I I — I 4: 12: 5-12. In connection Christ’s birth, death, ascension, and coronation, Satan is hurled down from Heaven. His accusations lose every semblance of Justice."

Compared to: "REVELATION 20 with 20: 1-3. Satan is bound and cast into the abyss; his power over the nations is curbed. Instead of the nations conquering the Church, the Church begins to conquer (Evangelize) the Nations."
Then;
"11 of : 2-6; 12: 14 ff. A long period of power and witness-bearing for the Church, which is nourished ‘away from the face of the serpent (Satan)’. The devil’s influence is curbed."

Compared with: "20: 2. A long period of power for the Church, Satan having been bound. He remains bound for a thousand-years, that is, during this entire Gospel/Church Age. (In Heaven the souls of the Redeemed are Living and Reigning with Christ, 20: 4-6. )"

Then;
"11: 7 ff.; 13: 7. A very brief period of most severe persecution. This is Satan’s little season: the most terrible and also the final manifestation of power of the persecuting Antichrist."

Compared to: "20: 7 ff. A very brief period of most severe persecution: Satan marshals the army of Gog and Magog against the Church. This is the Battle of Har-Magedon."

Then;
"Revelation 11: 17, 18; 14: 14 ff. The one and only Second Coming of Christ in Judgment."

Compared to: "Revelation 20:11 ff. The one and only Second Coming of Christ in Judgment."

"Once this ‘order of events’ or ‘programme of history’ is seen, Revelation 20 is not difficult to understand. All one needs to do is to remember the sequence: 1.) Christ’s First Coming is followed by a long period during which Satan is bound; 2.) this, in turn, is followed by Satan’s little season; and 3.) that is followed by Christ’s Second Coming, i. e. Jesus' Coming in Judgment."

"It should be clear immediately to anyone who carefully reads Revelation 20 that the ‘thousand-years’ precede the Second Coming of our Lord in Judgment. This Second Coming in Judgment is not described until we reach the eleventh verse. It is clear that the theory of the premillennialists is at variance with the facts here."

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. (KJV)—The angel comes down from Heaven, clearly indicating that the following actions will take place on the earth where Satan is active.

The following actions in Revelation 20:1-3 "And I saw an angel come down from Heaven", are then followed in 20:4 where we read John depicts another part of that Final Vision 20-22, "And I saw Thrones, and they sat upon them". I'm going to say 20:1-3 conserns "from Heaven" while 20:4 has to do with what John then saw IN Heaven.

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them

IN Heaven, I strongly believe.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,

Also, I see this as describing beheaded souls IN Heaven.

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

These souls have Passed on INTO Heaven.

and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (KJV)

That nails down this Reign of a thousand years which is taking place, now, IN Heaven.

There is no indication here that now the action has moved to Heaven.

That, I tried to show above.

There is no reason these believers cannot be resurrected on Earth, just like Jesus.

The First Resurrection is the Glorious Event which takes place at the Time a Sved soul Passes Away in this Life and is Resurrected into the Glories of Heaven.

20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The thousand years these souls Reign in is a part of the First Resurrection, after they have died on Earth and been Translated Into Heaven.

Why would the Word have to say that Christ ruled in Heaven? It’s his place! That would be like saying, “John lives in his home.” The meaning is plain.

The Word doesn't have to say "Christ Ruled in Heaven", because of all of the other obvious qualifiers that gives its Location as being Heaven.

Christ rules for 1000 years on earth, where Satan previously ruled.

I don't believe there ever was, or is, or will be any such thing like that that has to do with the "Earth", nor is there any allusion to anything like that mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

We shouldn't disregard the context of the entire passage or the historical evidence. It seems to me that Daniel 9:24-27 has been fulfilled about 2000 years ago at Christ first advent. The experts tell us that the 'he' of verse 27 is the anti-Christ. But the context of verse 25 and 26 are speaking about Jesus Christ! NOT THE ANTICHRIST! Why would the prophecy of seventy weeks indicate anything but 70 sequential weeks?

Very good/nice question!

"The people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" has commonly been understood as the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman armies led by Prince Titus in A.D. 70. That could be, but the context of verse 25 and 26 speaks about the anointed one or Messiah. I believe this is a blunder of the 1611 translators\~of the KJV...

25; "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26; "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

Do you see this? "the people of the prince that shall come",
Then, who is it that this verse says it is "that shall come"?

It is "the people of the prince" = "that shall come" and do the destroying, not "the prince".

"the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"; that is, the people of the Romans, under Vespasian their prince, emperor, and General Titus, who was Vespasion's son, should, in a little time after the cutting off of the Messiah at His Crucifixion, enter into the land of Judea, and destroy the city of Jerusalem, and the Temple that stood in it; (though some understand this of Messiah the Prince that should Come in His Power, and in a way of Judgment upon the Jewish Nation, and destroy them for their Rejection and Murdering of Him and it is True in my belief, but not as the Primary Interpretation OF "THE PRINCE" but would be an application and we'd need to add a Capitol "P" in Prince then; Matthew 24: the "Coming of the Lord" that the Deciples ask Jesus about was when they thought Jesus might Make His Triupham Proclimation that He was taking over the Rule of the Government from The Jews, when they asked, "what shall be the sign of Thy Coming", in 24:3b, while the real question that Jesus Answered was concerning the signs there would be prior to Jesus Coming in Providential Judgment upon the Jews, with Him Overseeing The Roman Armies "in the clouds", like in the Old Testament and Matthew 24, because at that Time in 70 A.D. the people or the Roman Army would be under Jesus Direction, ultimately, and Jesus would also ultimately be the One by Whose Orders, all these Judgments would be brought upon the Jews, in Jerusalem, A.D. 70.

So, in Matthew 24 Jesus is the Primary Interpretation of Who was to do the destroying, by Using the people, the Roman Armies, was Jesus, as we see in 24:27; "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west (when you realize the Roman Armies are Coming (as Jesus is Using them = you better ruuun!!); "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" when Jesus' was Coming in Judgment against those Jews who as a Nation had Crucified Him). 28; "For wheresoever the carcase is" (the deceased Jews), "there will the eagles" (the Roman Army who's insignia was an Eagle) "be gathered together", but here in Daniel 9, it is going to be Vespasion as the Primary Interpretation, being the actual historical prince at that time and his son, Titus, who carried out the Abomination of Desolation (Matthew 24:15). Many of the Jewish writers themselves Interpret it of Vespasian, as Aben Ezra, Jarchi, Abarbinel, and Jacchiades:"

Why would this biblical time period start, then stop at what the experts call a 'gap,' and then start up again some 2000 years later?

"Gap" sounds strangely familiar. 70 years equalling 69 years plus approximately 2000+/- years plus 1 more year? Not your typical Prophecy accuracy we'd like to see.

If that's the case then the week following the 69th week really isn't the 70th week since there's a 2000 year gap.

The 2069th+/- week, plus one!(?)

...and the city, sanctuary, and people of the coming Prince (Messiah) shall be destroyed, and their end shall come suddenly by an overflowing army until the end of the war when desolations are decreed by the Messiah.

"the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" is how it is said in Daniel 9:26 KJV. So, we have to make sure we're saying what's there right.

Jesus the anointed one decrees the desolation of the Jews, the temple, and Jerusalem because verse 27 says, "and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." This is the decree or determination mentioned in verse 26. The Messiah decrees this desolation\~due to Israel's unbelief.

Yes, Vespasian can be the one talked about here and his son, Titus "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate", whereas the Determination was by Jesus' Decree, for sure.

Nearly every unbiased commentator including Hebrew scholars agree that this passage is a difficult one to interpret.

Once you have Daniel, Matthew, and Revelation under your belt, where you feel very confident about your understanding of Daniel 7, Matthew 24, and Revelation 20:4, especially, you will be glad you stuck with them to get at least your weight in Gold regarding them.

If there are more difficult verses to interpret, while reconciling them among themselves and the rest of the Bible, I haven't met with them yet.

And having said that, I have certainly found allowing the Bible to interpret the Bible, to be unbelievably awesome and am amazed just how often we can benefit from doing that, especially in the most difficult and obscure passages, while under the Lordship of Jesus!

I've spent countless hour reading, researching, pondering and praying about the correct interpretation of this passage and this is the interpretation that I arrived at.

Speaking of rare, how often could we all Increase our Blessing in understanding what God would have us to know, the MORE WE PRAY about these "things of God"?