A Word of Encouragement and Regret Concerning End Times Prophecy.

[Alan Dale Gross]

End Times Prophecy​

“It is greatly to be regretted that those who, in our day, give themselves to the study and exposition of prophecy, seem not to be aware of the immense significance of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, which was accompanied by the extinction of Jewish national existence, and the dispersion of the Jewish people among all the nations.

"The failure to recognize the significance of that event, and the vast amount of prophecy which it fulfilled, has been the cause of great confusion, for the necessary consequence of missing the past fulfillment of predicted events is to leave on our hands a mass of prophecies for which we must needs contrive fulfillments in the future.

"The harmful results are two fold; for first, we are thus deprived of the evidential value, and the support to the faith, of those remarkable fulfillments of prophecy which are so clearly presented to us in authentic contemporary histories; and second, our vision of things to come is greatly obscured and confused by the transference to the future of predicted events which, in fact, have already happened, and whereof complete records have been preserved for our information.” -Philip Mauro

 

[kyredneck]

End Times Prophecy​

“It is greatly to be regretted that those who, in our day, give themselves to the study and exposition of prophecy, seem not to be aware of the immense significance of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, which was accompanied by the extinction of Jewish national existence, and the dispersion of the Jewish people among all the nations.

"The failure to recognize the significance of that event, and the vast amount of prophecy which it fulfilled, has been the cause of great confusion, for the necessary consequence of missing the past fulfillment of predicted events is to leave on our hands a mass of prophecies for which we must needs contrive fulfillments in the future.

"The harmful results are two fold; for first, we are thus deprived of the evidential value, and the support to the faith, of those remarkable fulfillments of prophecy which are so clearly presented to us in authentic contemporary histories; and second, our vision of things to come is greatly obscured and confused by the transference to the future of predicted events which, in fact, have already happened, and whereof complete records have been preserved for our information.” -Philip Mauro

AMEN! BINGO! GLORY HALLELUJAH! SPOT ON!

 

[kyredneck]

Hodge's three simple rules:

1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.

2. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture.

3. The Scriptures are to be interpreted under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which guidance is to be humbly and earnestly sought. - Charles Hodge

 

[JD731]

” -Philip Mauro​

You must at some point think for yourself.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

You must at some point think for yourself.

You already know you can't handle me posting my thinking.

Like "Philip Mauro's work is astonishingly correct
and your position is astonishingly incorrect."

You start with the foundation on which your whole End Times scheme is based on a verse God Wrote that proves it wrong.

God Reveals that He Showed Jesus, Who Showed His Angel, who Sent and Signified to show John, in 20:1 where then in 20:4 John said he "saw thrones", in Heaven, of course,
"and they sat upon them", the souls below, in Heaven
"and judgment was given unto them: those souls in Heaven
"and I saw the souls of them in Heaven;
"that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, when they were alive on Earth, who then died and are now in Heaven;
"and for the Word of God, the remaining saints in Heaven
"and which had not worshipped the beast", before being martyred and Passed On into Heaven where they are now;
"neither his image", on Earth before Going to Heaven,
"neither had received his mark upon their foreheads",
when they were alive on Earth before Going to Heaven,
"or in their hands;" on Earth before Going to Heaven,
"neither his image", on Earth before Going to Heaven,
"and they Lived" WHERE THEY ARE THERE in HEAVEN,
and Reigned WHERE THEY ARE THERE in HEAVEN,
with Christ a thousand years" IN HEAVEN WHERE JESUS IS.

If you disagree with those verses, where God Shows they were in Heaven Ruling and Reigning with Jesus Christ a thousand years, Fill in your Belief in that verse here:

John, in 20:4 said he "saw thrones", Where?__________________,
"and they sat upon them", Where?____________________,
"and judgment was given unto them: Where?_______________,
"and I saw the souls of them Where?________________,
"that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
Where?______________________________________________________,
"and for the Word of God,
"and which had not worshipped the beast",
Where?________________________________,
"neither his image", Where?____________________,
"neither had received his mark upon their foreheads",
Where?___________________________________________________,
"or in their hands;" Where?________________________,
"neither his image", Where?___________________________,
"and they Lived" Where?_____________________________,
and Reigned Where?_______________________________,
with Christ a thousand years." Where?________________.

You won't find this charted out like this anywhere else.

I'm the one you want to tell you what I think?

You can't handle it.

 

[Reformed]

End Times Prophecy​

“It is greatly to be regretted that those who, in our day, give themselves to the study and exposition of prophecy, seem not to be aware of the immense significance of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, which was accompanied by the extinction of Jewish national existence, and the dispersion of the Jewish people among all the nations.

"The failure to recognize the significance of that event, and the vast amount of prophecy which it fulfilled, has been the cause of great confusion, for the necessary consequence of missing the past fulfillment of predicted events is to leave on our hands a mass of prophecies for which we must needs contrive fulfillments in the future.

"The harmful results are two fold; for first, we are thus deprived of the evidential value, and the support to the faith, of those remarkable fulfillments of prophecy which are so clearly presented to us in authentic contemporary histories; and second, our vision of things to come is greatly obscured and confused by the transference to the future of predicted events which, in fact, have already happened, and whereof complete records have been preserved for our information.” -Philip Mauro

Would you consider yourself a full Preterist or Partial Preterist?

 

[JD731]

You already know you can't handle me posting my thinking.

Like "Philip Mauro's work is astonishingly correct
and your position is astonishingly incorrect."

You start with the foundation on which your whole End Times scheme is based on a verse God Wrote that proves it wrong.

God Reveals that He Showed Jesus, Who Showed His Angel, who Sent and Signified to show John, in 20:1 where then in 20:4 John said he "saw thrones", in Heaven, of course,
"and they sat upon them", the souls below, in Heaven
"and judgment was given unto them: those souls in Heaven
"and I saw the souls of them in Heaven;
"that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, when they were alive on Earth, who then died and are now in Heaven;
"and for the Word of God, the remaining saints in Heaven
"and which had not worshipped the beast", before being martyred and Passed On into Heaven where they are now;
"neither his image", on Earth before Going to Heaven,
"neither had received his mark upon their foreheads",
when they were alive on Earth before Going to Heaven,
"or in their hands;" on Earth before Going to Heaven,
"neither his image", on Earth before Going to Heaven,
"and they Lived" WHERE THEY ARE THERE in HEAVEN,
and Reigned WHERE THEY ARE THERE in HEAVEN,
with Christ a thousand years" IN HEAVEN WHERE JESUS IS.

If you disagree with those verses, where God Shows they were in Heaven Ruling and Reigning with Jesus Christ a thousand years, Fill in your Belief in that verse here:

John, in 20:4 said he "saw thrones", Where?__________________,
"and they sat upon them", Where?____________________,
"and judgment was given unto them: Where?_______________,
"and I saw the souls of them Where?________________,
"that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
Where?______________________________________________________,
"and for the Word of God,
"and which had not worshipped the beast",
Where?________________________________,
"neither his image", Where?____________________,
"neither had received his mark upon their foreheads",
Where?___________________________________________________,
"or in their hands;" Where?________________________,
"neither his image", Where?___________________________,
"and they Lived" Where?_____________________________,
and Reigned Where?_______________________________,
with Christ a thousand years." Where?________________.

You won't find this charted out like this anywhere else.

I'm the one you want to tell you what I think?

You can't handle it.

I am here to help you, not to harm you. The conclusions you have posted concerning these people should convince anyone that you have not read the book and followed the time lines given. Neither have you considered the time of the prophecy and it's division of past present and future that John was commanded to write, things that were,, the vision of the glorified Christ, the things that are (in 94 AD), the churches, when he wrote the Revelation, and things that shall be hereafter, here after the things that are, which the context defines as the churches. The future things will be the things that will be after the churches.

Jesus Christ has returned from heaven when we get to Re 20. He, along with the church and the hosts of heaven, returned in Re 19. Those "souls" in Re 6 were those saved souls that loved not their lives unto death during the great tribulation and will be resurrected to reign on earth with Christ for a thousand years.

There is no mystery here if you just teach yourself to believe the words in the Scriptures rather than from the bookstore. The good news for you is that there is still time to get it right, but you must hurry. I will help where I can.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Re 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection has a trinitarian signature, the firstfruits of the resurrection, beginning with Jesus Christ and the OT saints, the church of Jesus Christ, the rapture before the tribulation, the main harvest, and these tribulation saints after Christ returns at the beginning of the kingdom, the gleanings.

2 Cor 13:5

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Would you consider yourself a full Preterist or Partial Preterist?

Long answer, in the current day mish-mash of labeling things.

I'm an Ahmillennialist.

The idea that most differentiates Full Preterism from Partial Preterism is where Full Preterism views Prophecy as Fully Completed and, therefore, as a Fully "Realized Eschatology", while Partial Preterism views many Prophecies as clearly fulfilled by Jesus Christ in the New Testament, with other Prophecies throughout the Old and New Testaments referring to the Afterlife, in Glory, that apply to Heaven.

Then, the New Testament, Eschatology's principal dynamic is that tension that remains between Fulfilled Prophecies ("Already" Fulfilled) and those awaiting Fulfillment ("Not Yet" Fulfilled).

Partial Preterism or 'Partially Past' indicates, therefore, a Partially Realized Eschatology.

"Inaugurated Eschatology" is a way to say Partial Preterism, compared to "Fully Realized Eschatology" is a way to express Full Preterism.

Since the word for "Partial" is contained in the word "Preterism", the idea of "Full Preterism" is stating "Full Partial", which is pretty bad thinking to start with. Then, when they want to claim that Jesus has already Returned the Second Time, based on their understanding of the first portions of Matthew 24, that is more than boarderline non-Christianity to the taste of many, if not most.

When Jesus says He will be Coming in the Clouds, "Full Preterists" see that as having taking place in A.D. 70, true, however, it was only Jesus Coming in the Clouds at that time that it refers to, using Old Testament words to describe the fact that Jesus was actually 'Contained in the Clouds of Providential Judgment' where He was Orchestrating the Roman Army to distroy the Jews and their Economy of Temple Worship there in Jerusalem, also in A.D. 70., not that Jesus Returned in His Physical, Body to Earth the Second Time.

(Personally, I find the different qualifications for the word "Preterism", being divided into 'Full Partial or Hyper Preterism' compared with "Partial-Partialism Preterism", if you will, to be similarly confusing to the uninitiated as with "Hyper-Calvanism" vs "Calvanism", so I am an Ahmillennialist.

I'll coin "Jesusism" as a better name for "Calvinism" and Partial Preterism-Ahmillennialism, I'll call "Biblism".

When I become 'king'.

Anyway, I see Jesus talking about A.D. 70 in Matthew 24, up to verses 35-51, where He then answers the Disciples' third question.

After asking their first question, "Tell us, when shall these things be?", regarding the Temple being thrown down that Jesus had just talked to them about, Jesus answers that in 24:4-14.

Nothing Jesus says about the events leading up to the Abomination of Desolation, in Jerusalem, A.D. 70, has anything to say about Jesus' Second Coming.

Their second question had to do with, 'they thought',
asking Jesus when He was "coming" to take over from the Jews to be the Ruler of the Government, however in 24:15-34, Jesus answered about His "Coming" in the Clouds, in Jerusalem, A.D. 70, as the Overseer of Providential Judgment upon those who had Him Crucified, when they asked "what shall be the sign of Thy coming"? Nothing is mentioned there about Jesus' Second Coming.

Then their third question, however, which is all important here, was (what shall be the sign...) "of the End of the World?"

That third question is what Jesus answers in 24:35-51, saying in 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the Angels of Heaven, but My Father only", concerning what He had just said in 24:35a "Heaven and Earth shall pass away..." = the End of the World.

Then, Jesus goes on to say in 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what Hour your Lord doth Come."

Matthew 24:35-51 are the only verses with Jesus talking about the End of the World when He Comes Again, and He doesn't give any sign for it because, how could He and why would He", as we see in 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the Angels of Heaven, but My Father only"

And some people think that Jesus has already Come a Second Time to Earth? That is as bad as those who feel that they think they know The End of the World will be in the 7,000th year, sometime!(?) Exactly, how do they think they could know that, when Jesus said He didn't in His Humanity, at that time?

And, guess what else? We don't have to concern ourselves with guessing about what temporal "signs", to look for when or where they might give us any indication as to when Jesus Will Return. Jesus just said, "Watch therefore: for ye know not what Hour your Lord doth Come."

So, there is no Prophecy Fulfilled there regarding Jesus Returning to Earth, already, as a "Full Preterist/Hyper Preterist" might think they believe, then while Matthew 23:4-34 does have to do with Jerusalem being destroyed in A.D. 70, they say nothing, again, about Jesus' Second Coming.

 

[Reformed]

Long answer, in the current day mish-mash of labeling things.

Actually, I have no problem with labels to the degree they are accurate in what they describe.

I am well acquainted with Preterism and Partial-Preterism. I consider Preterism a false teaching. I don't sub-divide it into different categories. Partial Preterism is an orthodox view. The fact it shares the term "Preterism" with the other view can be confusing, but those who know...well...know.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Preterism a false teaching.

That is the full extent of my understanding of the term 'Preterism' prior to studying it out from the net a little bit to try and wrap my mind around 'what it is that I believe'.

I've never associated myself with Preterism at all before posting this reply.

However, I wondered why there are very sound teachers, from what I understand, who are categorized that way.

For example, the site Forms Of Preterism – Preterist Archives has some of the best men I know anything about in their list of Partial Preterists.

They list 'Modern Preterists', 'Futurists', 'Preterist Universalism', and 'Preterist-Idealism', but then go on to talk about 'Hyper-Preterists', 'Progressive Preterism', 'Normative Preterism', 'Reformed Preterism', etc., etc., so that term is a regular old mindfield of meanings.

I don't sub-divide it into different categories.

Looks like if you did, though, you could make a career out of trying to do that somehow...

Partial Preterism is an orthodox view.

That's where I landed in an attempt to find an answer to your question.

The fact it shares the term "Preterism" with the other view can be confusing, but those who know...well...know.

Either way.

 

[kyredneck]

I've never associated myself with Preterism at all before posting this reply.

Mauro was post-Mil. Kenneth Gentry, who is a prolific writer on the 'Preterist school of thought', is post-Mil.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I mean I hadn't claimed that name because the only thing I'd known about that name was that I thought it stood for what Full Preterists believe on saying Jesus has already Returned, based on Matthew 24, which is sort of nutty.

Then, the list of others they claim to be Partial or Historic Preterists on that site has men I hope are Amil., but I haven't checked.

If they are mostly all Post-Mill, then I will have brilliantly learned I would not be Preterists in the least, but would just take Mauro and the others there as being fine teachers in other areas, since I can't find any Reign of Jesus on Earth for one thousand years, anywhere in the Bible.

Thus, that would make me Amil, and I couldn't answer a Full or Partial Preterists question.

It's demonic with names, where Mil is part of Amil, when it's belief is in 'one thousand years', interpreted figuratively, the same as when God says "to a thousand generations".

"Millennium" head fakes the whole notion of one thousand years expressing 'a very long BUT FINITE Period of Time'.

The Present Spiritual Reign of Jesus as the Head of His churches and as the King Over the remainder of His Earthly Kingdom of saved children, from His First coming to His Second Coming, is what it is.