Imputed Righteousness

[Van]

It is not fiction Van it is a question. The way you write it would seem that God has to think about whether to grant it as real or unreal faith.

You seem to have a persecution complex Van. Not everyone that questions your views is out to get you.

Why did you ask if God has to think about it. Everyone should know God knows our thoughts and beliefs. Your question like this post simply is diversionary to avoid discussion of scripture.

God does not make anyone become the righteousness of God by imputation, but rather by the washing of regeneration, as we are born anew, holy and blameless before Him.

 

[Charlie24]

And God's elect, during their lifetime, by the enabling power of God to make them willing, will have saving faith in the finished work of Christ and repent from dead works.

Those God reprobated, during their lifetime, will not be enabled by the power of God and made willing, and will not have saving faith in the finished work of Christ nor repent from dead works.

What you're saying is that God chooses who will be His robots, and off the Hell with the rest He doesn't want.

Whether you like it or not that is what you've said!

 

[KenH]

This may surprise you but I do not care what J. Gill has to say on the matter.

Besides replying to you, I posted it so that any of God's elect, whom the Holy Spirit has already regenerated and granted the gifts of faith and repentance, who may read it, might be strengthened and encouraged, and so that, if it is God's will, any of His elect who have not been regenerated as of yet might be assisted in their hearing of the gospel of the finished work of Christ on their behalf, for their salvation, that God prepared before the world began.

 

[Van]

Is it possible that all 4 steps you've given can be completed at one time, in seconds?

It is not possible they are accomplished without sequence, as in all at the same time. As I said before, I do not think scripture indicates any delay in the sequence, so all these conjectures about God needing time to accomplish these steps of salvation is simply diversionary, to deny those steps or the sequence of those steps.

 

[KenH]

What you're saying is that God chooses who will be His robots, and off the Hell with the rest He doesn't want.

Whether you like it or not that is what you've said!

Other than your pejorative use of the word "robots, that is what the Bible teaches. Apparently, you recoil at the thought that you are a mere creature, subject to the Creator, that you are mere clay, subject to the Potter.

Romans 9:10-23
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
( for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

 

[Charlie24]

It is not possible they are accomplished without sequence, as in all at the same time. As I said before, I do not think scripture indicates any delay in the sequence, so all these conjectures about God needing time to accomplish these steps of salvation is simply diversionary, to deny those steps or the sequence of those steps.

It's obvious that we must hear before we can believe, I think no one will argue with that but the Hyper-Calvinists.

I think it's obvious if we believe that we are declared righteous before God and washed immediately.

So I don't get your point of this? It can all take place in seconds and the sequence is obvious.

 

[Charlie24]

Other than your pejorative use of the word "robots, that is what the Bible teaches. Apparently, you recoil at the thought that you are a mere creature, subject to the Creator, that you are mere clay, subject to the Potter.

Romans 9:10-23
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
( for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

Yes, I am what you say in the 1st paragraph, can't deny that!

But I'm a creation that was given free will to choose my way through this life.

I can choose God and be with Him forever, or I can reject Him and be with the god of this world forever.

God does not make that choice, and you will find it no where in Scripture.

What you are presenting is a theory that attacks the very character of God.

And I resent it, I despise it, and I will as long as possible speak against it!

 

[KenH]

It's obvious that we must hear before we can believe, I think no one will argue with that but the Hyper-Calvinists.

Not all hyper-Calvinists, but maybe some. I am what some call a "hyper-Calvinist", or a Supralapsarian, and I certainly understand from the Bible that God's elect are regenerated by the Holy Spirit under the hearing of the gospel, and not without hearing the gospel.

 

[KenH]

And I resent it, I despise it, and I will as long as possible speak against it!

Then you are resenting, despising, and speaking against Romans 9:10-23.

 

[Charlie24]

Then you are resenting, despising, and speaking against Romans 9:10-23.

I'm resenting, despising, and speaking against your Calvinist interpretation of Rom, 9:10-23.

 

[Van]

It's obvious that we must hear before we can believe, I think no one will argue with that but the Hyper-Calvinists.

I think it's obvious if we believe that we are declared righteous before God and washed immediately.

So I don't get your point of this? It can all take place in seconds and the sequence is obvious.

Well here is at least a suggestion, as the post says we are declared righteous, rather than our faith is declared righteousness. I totally disagree.
Abraham was NOT declared righteous, his faith was declared righteous or having righteousness.

And again with the insanity that I claim the process takes seconds. I say the process takes sequence, first we must be transferred into Christ, second we must undergo the washing of regeneration, resulting in being spiritually born anew, and then we are sealed in Christ.

The sequence is not obvious as Charlie24 seems to have someone declared righteous before they undergo the washing of regeneration. That is hogwash. Or they steps occur simultaneously. That too is hogwash.

 

[Charlie24]

I'm resenting, despising, and speaking against your Calvinist interpretation of Rom, 9:10-23.

I'm not resenting and despising you, Ken.

I count you as my Brother in Christ despite our differences.

I take the theory you hold very seriously as a direct insult before God.

 

[Charlie24]

Well here is at least a suggestion, as the post says we are declared righteous, rather than our faith is declared righteousness. I totally disagree.
Abraham was NOT declared righteous, his faith was declared righteous or having righteousness.

And again with the insanity I claim the process takes seconds. I say the process takes sequence, first we must be transferred into Christ, second we must undergo the washing of regeneration, resulting in being spiritually born anew, and then we are sealed in Christ.

Just as with Abel when God accepted his sacrifice, He accepted the man who presented the sacrifice in faith.

The same goes for Abraham and all of us for that matter.

 

[KenH]

I'm resenting, despising, and speaking against your Calvinist interpretation of Rom, 9:10-23.

"Calvinism" has nothing to do with it. You are resenting, despising and speaking against the clear teaching of God's Word.

 

[Van]

Just as with Abel when God accepted his sacrifice, He accepted the man who presented the sacrifice in faith.

The same goes for Abraham and all of us for that matter.

Good grief. Do you really think they were transferred into Christ before the New Covenant was inaugurated?

The thief on the cross next to Christ entered heaven when? Does "today you will be with Me in Paradise" ring a bell. Ask yourself why none of the OT saints entered the third heaven, the Paradise of God, before Christ died.

This practice of using the OT to interpret the NT is backwards. We use the NT to interpret the OT.

This from the guy obsessing over the time taken for the sequence. Under the Old Covenant, those chosen for salvation were NOT immediately transferred into Christ when their faith was credited as righteousness, such as Abraham.

 

[KenH]

Good grief. Do you really think they were transferred into Christ before the New Covenant was inaugurated?

The thief on the cross next to Christ entered heaven when? Does "today you will be with Me in Paradise" ring a bell. Ask yourself why none of the OT saints entered the third heaven, the Paradise of God, before Christ died.

All of God's elect from the beginning of time go to Heaven when they die to be with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are not put into some holding cell for thousands of years.

 

[Charlie24]

"Calvinism" has nothing to do with it. You are resenting, despising and speaking against the clear teaching of God's Word.

No, Ken, I'm speaking against your theory and that has everything to do with it.

I realize I also have a different interpretation and they clash.

We're talking about a an insult to God if your interpretation is wrong, that's not the case if mine is wrong!

 

[KenH]

that's not the case if mine is wrong!

Yes, it is. You think that your will is superior to God's will. You think that God can't do something unless you let him. You, a mere creature, think that you are superior to the Creator; you, mere clay, think that you are superior to the Potter.

 

[Charlie24]

Good grief. Do you really think they were transferred into Christ before the New Covenant was inaugurated?

The thief on the cross next to Christ entered heaven when? Does "today you will be with Me in Paradise" ring a bell. Ask yourself why none of the OT saints entered the third heaven, the Paradise of God, before Christ died.

This practice of using the OT to interpret the NT is backwards. We use the NT to interpret the OT.

This from the guy obsessing over the time taken for the sequence. Under the Old Covenant, those chosen for salvation were NOT immediately transferred into Christ when their faith was credited as righteousness, such as Abraham.

It ever ends with you, Van.

They were accepted by God through faith just as we are, Justification by faith.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, it is. You think that your will is superior to God's will. You think that God can't do something unless you let him. You, a mere creature, think that you are superior to the Creator; you, mere clay, think that you are superior to the Potter.

Are we reading the same Scripture where the Hebrews in the wilderness would not obey God, but yet He pleaded with them to do so?

All through the Scripture God is pleading with Israel to keep His commandments but would not.

That tells me man has free will to say NO to God. But it it's not good for them now that they are suffering for that rejection.