Hebrews 2:14. How does the devil have the power of death?

[DaveXR650]

Anyway, my point is we need to discuss how we differ in developing our conclusions. We never get there because Calvinists here jump on any disagreement and will not consider or even allow explanation or debate.

I did not ask about Calvinism.

You misunderstood, again, my statements.

No doubt. But I am done here.

 

[JonC]

No doubt. But I am done here.

Yes, and that is the problem.

In these discussions (any discussions) it is important to take the time and understand opposing views.

The trend for Calvinists is to jump in to defend their understanding rather than listening to other believers.

This is why "iron sharpening iron" rarely occurs with Calvivinists. They hold their understanding as titanium, perfect, beyond questioning or testing. They can only continue to exist within a small bubble, isolated from the body of Christ.

So they defend their view and are done. Nothing lost, nothing gained. Stagnant.

And that is fine. As I continue I may draw from your posts, respond to your posts, even address you directly.

I do not mean that as a demand you participate but as a mechanism to react to the ideas you have posted.

But thank you for what you have offered.

 

[JonC]

The question to be answered would be on what basis can Holy God declare lost sinners justified now, and yet still remain Holy?

On the basis of Christ.

In the present we are not yet righteous, not yet conformed to Christ's image, not yet glorified, have not yet laid aside our sin completely.

But Jesus also has become the guarantee (the surety) of a better covenant.

God can justify sinners based on Christ Himself.

God foreknew us in Christ.
He also predestined us to become conformed to the image of His Son.
And those whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

In the present God looks upon us as we will be in Christ.

But at judgment we will be like Christ.


The atonement is not as superficial as Calvinists present it to be. It is not about God punishing our sins but about Christ Himself and our reconciliation in Him.

 

[JonC]

This is a major point where @DaveXR650 and I disagree.

I offer my explanation (not verses but my understanding of what those verses teach regarding this topic) for members to evaluate - not with other ideas about what is taught but against God's own words.

Accept or dismiss as you like. But, if what you dismiss proves correct acvording to God's wirds, dismisd it at your own peril (borrowing from Spurgeon).


There is no condemnation at all for us who are in Christ. Why? Because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has set us free from the law of sin and of death. What the Law could not do God did.

God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. He did this so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk according to the Spirit (rather than the flesh).

The mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life.

If Christ is in us, even though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Anyway...take it, leave it. All I am doing is delivering it.

 

[DaveXR650]

There is no condemnation at all for us who are in Christ. Why? Because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has set us free from the law of sin and of death. What the Law could not do God did.

God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. He did this so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk according to the Spirit (rather than the flesh).

Yes. Sin (specifically our sin which he bore) is condemned in the flesh. The law was fulfilled and as Jesus said not one jot or tittle was omitted. And it was an offering for sin as you said.

Without the offering for sin repentance or faith are of no use at all, much less any endeavoring to walk according to the Spirit rather than the flesh. If you agree on that, as you have posted, we are in agreement.
To constantly bring that up then dance away from it shows that you really don't want to be a Socinian. Just join back in with normal Calvinist and non Calvinist Christians and stay away from these oddballs you have been listening to.

 

[JonC]

Yes. Sin (specifically our sin which he bore) is condemned in the flesh. The law was fulfilled and as Jesus said not one jot or tittle was omitted. And it was an offering for sin as you said.

Without the offering for sin repentance or faith are of no use at all, much less any endeavoring to walk according to the Spirit rather than the flesh. If you agree on that, as you have posted, we are in agreement.
To constantly bring that up then dance away from it shows that you really don't want to be a Socinian. Just join back in with normal Calvinist and non Calvinist Christians and stay away from these oddballs you have been listening to.

I am glad we at least agree on part of my belief.

I have not danced away from it at all.

Christ was an offering for sin. He bore our sin so we would bear His righteousness. God laid our sins on Him and lays His righteousness on us.

The difference is I do believe that Christ condemned sin in the flesh, fulfilling the requirement of the law.

Where you present God as redeeming us through the law by transferring our sins on Jesus and punishing them there, I believe that we still suffer the wages of sin and that the body is still dead because of sin, but our spirit is alive because of righteousness

 

[JonC]

One thing Calvinists miss is the purpose of the law. They view the law as God's righteousness itself (rather than a manifestation of God's righteousness as God stated).

So they miss what the law does. It is like a mirror, or a school master. It would show us our righteousness, if we did not fall short of God's glory. But we do fall short of God's glory, so the law shows us our sin and we know our state (that we fall short of God's glory).

Unfortunately Calvin developed a theory that viewed righteousness as legal justice (as a matter of the law). So obviously his atonement cannot be reconciled with God's words.

Why? Because the law does not make us anything. It does not make us fall short of God's glory. It does not make Jesus righteous. It teaches who we are.

Christ bore our sin in the flesh just as we bear His righteousness in the spirit.

A Calvinist will never come to terms with the atonement of the Bible. If they do then they would no longer hold to Calvin's theory.

 

[JesusFan]

One thing Calvinists miss is the purpose of the law. They view the law as God's righteousness itself (rather than a manifestation of God's righteousness as God stated).

So they miss what the law does. It is like a mirror, or a school master. It would show us our righteousness, if we did not fall short of God's glory. But we do fall short of God's glory, so the law shows us our sin and we know our state (that we fall short of God's glory).

Unfortunately Calvin developed a theory that viewed righteousness as legal justice (as a matter of the law). So obviously his atonement cannot be reconciled with God's words.

Why? Because the law does not make us anything. It does not make us fall short of God's glory. It does not make Jesus righteous. It teaches who we are.

Christ bore our sin in the flesh just as we bear His righteousness in the spirit.

A Calvinist will never come to terms with the atonement of the Bible. If they do then they would no longer hold to Calvin's theory.

Its not Calvin theology though, as it is the theology of Jesus and the Apostles themselves , revealed to them by the Holy Spirit, and letting us tie together the OT Sacrificial system to the promised messiah

 

[JonC]

Its not Calvin theology though, as it is the theology of Jesus and the Apostles themselves , revealed to them by the Holy Spirit, and letting us tie together the OT Sacrificial system to the promised messiah

No, and I feel sorry for you (sincerely, not as an insult in any way) otherwise I would not be replying to these threads at all.

Where you present God as redeeming us through the law by transferring our sins on Jesus and punishing them there, God tells us that we still suffer the wages of sin and that the body is still dead because of sin, but our spirit is alive because of righteousness.

 

[DaveXR650]

The difference is I do believe that Christ condemned sin in the flesh, fulfilling the requirement of the law.

God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. He did this so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk according to the Spirit (rather than the flesh).

Focus Jon.

 

[JonC]

Focus Jon.

Thanks. Type-o. I fixed it.

You are a good editor.

I believe Christ did condemn sin in the flesh and fulfilled the law.

We still suffer the wages of sin and the body is still dead because of sin, but our spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Without the cross we would have died because of sin and then been judged according to the flesh. Because of the blood of Christ, although the body still dies because of sin, our spirit is alive because of righteousness.

 

[DaveXR650]

I believe Christ did condemn sin in the flesh and fulfilled the law.

We still suffer the wages of sin and the body is still dead because of sin, but our spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Now, the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. This requires explanation of your quoted statement. Romans 6:23 seems to say the gift of God is the contrasted possibility as opposed to the wages of sin. It seems the obvious meaning of 6:23 would be that because of the gift of God we can avoid the wages of sin. Since we all agree that we will physically die then it must be referring to something else like spiritual death.

You seem to agree because you say our spirit is alive but because of who's righteousness. If it's ours then it's not a gift of God. If it is a gift of God then it refers to something Christ did. How about the remission of sins. He shed his blood for the remission of sins. No one, especially not Calvinists, say that a new creature, a regenerated person, a practitioner of righteousness and holiness, and faith and good works are not essential and God's gifts to us due to regeneration, which is totally God's work. That is not in dispute. What I think is in dispute or at least needs clarification is "righteousness", what it consists of and from where does it come.

 

[JonC]

Now, the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It is a contrast.

The wages of sin is death. Sin produces death.

The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.

It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

If Christ is in us, even though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is a contrast but one does not contradict or nullify the other.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Now. Is it true that repentance and faith are really what we do? Yes. And I would not object to telling someone that with the only requirement being that they believe Jesus somehow was the one who forgives sins. You see, this gets into the reason I get so upset with you on this. Bare naked repentance and faith leaves out the need for Christ if that's really all you require. This is Socinianism and a false gospel because it is no gospel at all. You might object but it's fair since you question the salvation of Calvinists who go full on with their doctrine. You go full on with your path and it will lead to Socinianism and apostacy.

Great post, Dave! The thing about Ezekiel 18 is that it reflects the law. 'Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourself a new heart and a new spirit....' (v.31). It's like the Lord Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must be born again. The natural man simply cannot do that. As you say, if we could, why would we need Christ? But already, in 11:19, and again in chapter 36, God promises to give the Jews (and bear in mind Gal. 3:7 & Phil. 3:3) a new heart and new spirit. How should the Jews of Ezekiel's day have looked at chapter 18? It should have made them despair in their own righteousness and look to God and the promised Messiah. 'The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.'

 

[JonC]

'Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourself a new heart and a new spirit....' (v.31). 'The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.'

Exactly.

And Ezekiel 18 tells us how God forgives sins (repentance, turning from wickedness, turning to God, making a new heart).

And yes...the law was a tutuor. It showed us our wickedness by pointing to our sins.

But we cannot be righteousness through the law. It only pointed to who we are/ were (a schoolmaster).

So our bodies are dead because of sin.
That is proper as the wages of sin is death.
Sin produces death.
God's Word stands.

Yet although we die yet shall we live.
The wages of sin is death.
But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ.
The body dies because of sin.
But our spirit is alive because of righteousness.

 

[JonC]

Anyway...I am not trying to persuade anybody. We all have to decide who it is we will follow and what doctrines we will teach. We will not be held responsible to one another but to God. This is why He cautions those who teach. They will be held to a greater standard.

Those who believe that what the Bible really teaches is Calvinism or Calvin's theory of atonement, proclaim it.

Those who believe, as I, that the Bible teaches God's words then proclaim that.

Contrasts exist for a reason. The louder false doctrines are shouted the brighter the Light shines in that darkness.

Let God sort us out, as shepherds sort out their sheep from the goats. Let the tares remain among the wheat. In time we will all know which gospel is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

Anyway...I am not trying to persuade anybody. We all have to decide who it is we will follow and what doctrines we will teach. We will not be held responsible to one another but to God. This is why He cautions those who teach. They will be held to a greater standard.

Those who believe that what the Bible really teaches is Calvinism or Calvin's theory of atonement, proclaim it.

Those who believe, as I, that the Bible teaches God's words then proclaim that.

Contrasts exist for a reason. The louder false doctrines are shouted the brighter the Light shines in that darkness.

Let God sort us out, as shepherds sort out their sheep from the goats. Let the tares remain among the wheat. In time we will all know which gospel is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Speaking of sorting out, how would you like to have God's job of sorting out every person who has ever lived?

I don't envy that responsibility in the least.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Exactly.

And Ezekiel 18 tells us how God forgives sins (repentance, turning from wickedness, turning to God, making a new heart).

Do you think we can make our own hearts new?

And yes...the law was a tutuor. It showed us our wickedness by pointing to our sins.

But we cannot be righteousness through the law. It only pointed to who we are/ were (a schoolmaster).

So our bodies are dead because of sin.
That is proper as the wages of sin is death.
Sin produces death.
God's Word stands.

Yet although we die yet shall we live.
The wages of sin is death.
But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ.
The body dies because of sin.
But our spirit is alive because of righteousness.

As usual, no place for Christ crucified. Really, if you just left off the 'in Christ' bit, it would work just as well.
I would love to hear your comments on 1 Cor. 2:2. Why did Paul resolve to know nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified?

 

[JonC]

Speaking of sorting out, how would you like to have God's job of sorting out every person who has ever lived?

I don't envy that responsibility in the least.

At least there is One Standard .

 

[JonC]

Do you think we can make our own hearts new?

As usual, no place for Christ crucified. Really, if you just left off the 'in Christ' bit, it would work just as well.
I would love to hear your comments on 1 Cor. 2:2. Why did Paul resolve to know nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified?

Ummm.....if you are going to respond to my posts it would be a good idea to actually read those posts.

God removes our old heart and gives us a new heart. God removes our old spirit and gives us a new spirit. God puts His Spirit in us. We are made new creations in Christ. We die to sin. We are made alive in Christ. We are conformed into the image of Christ.

For those whom God foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

And these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Paul determined to know nothing among the people except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. And that our faith is in the resurrection for if Jesus not be raised our faith in vain.

I agree with 1 Cor 2:2. That is what I have been saying.

We can believe that the Bible teaches the words of God ("what is written").

We can believe that the Bible teaches what any sect (Calvinism, Catholicism, Arminians, Jehovah Witnesses, whatever) tells us that the Bible really teaches.

We cannot believe both.

You have made your choice.
I have made mine.

I think you will agree that we do not hold the same gospel. One of us (or both of us) holds "another gospel".

For me, I can say that my faith is not in the Father punishing my sins laid on Jesus in order that I escape the wrath to come.

Instead my faith is in Jesus Himself, having tasted death for me and having destroyed the power of the one holding the power of death. I fully accept that I will suffer the wages of my sin, that my body is dead because of sin. And I am grateful that my spirit is alive because of His righteousness. He is the surety for my own salvation, and in this present time I bear His righteousness that God laid on me. But I am predestined to be conformed into His image, to be made a new creation, to be glorified.

We do not judge one another. God will judge us.