Hebrews 11:2

[Van]

Hebrews 11:2 NASB
For by it the people of old gained approval.

Our first Greek word ("gar" - G1036- and translated "for") is used here to reinforce the validity of the statement, so an alternate translation choice might be "assuredly."

Next, "by it" refers to "faith" mentioned in the previous verse. So by faith...

Next, "the people of old" translates "elders" or forefathers. Here the context solves the dilemma, the old testament saints are in view, thus "believers of the old testament" might be a better understanding.

Next, "gained approval" translates "martyreō" G3140) which is a passive verb indicating a "good testimony" was bestowed upon them. God credited their faith as righteousness.

Of course this is obviously true concerning Abraham, but what about the others listed in the chapter?

The common threads are that each trusted in the validity of God future promises, even in the face of present unlikely circumstances, or God demonstrated His acceptance of the person's faith.

Able over Cain.
Enoch was taken up.
Noah and family over the others
Sarah's faith even in light of her age.
Isaac trusted in the future fulfillment of God's promises.
Joseph trusted in the promise of the "promised land."
Moses certainly had God's acceptance as demonstrated with miracle after miracle.
Joshua trusted the land would be given into his hand, even by blowing a horn.
Rahab trusted in God at the risk of her life.

What more shall we say?

Assuredly by faith the believers of the old testament had their faith credited as righteousness as demonstrated by God's confirming actions.

 

[Deacon]

What more shall I say? (Hebrews 11:32a)

The list that follows were people not necessarily noted for their powerful life of faith, but for the power of the God that they had a measure of faith in;
...Gideon (Judges 6) , Barak (Judges 4), Samson (Judges 13), and Jephthah (Judges 11).

Rob

 

[Van]

What more shall I say? (Hebrews 11:32a)

The list that follows were people not necessarily noted for their powerful life of faith, but for the power of the God that they had a measure of faith in;
...Gideon (Judges 6) , Barak (Judges 4), Samson (Judges 13), and Jephthah (Judges 11).

Rob

I would think being listed in Hebrews Chapter 11 qualifies as being noted for their faith.

Hebrews 11:1 teaches that an aspect of faith is the assurance or full confidence in what is our hope, the conviction that something is true. Thus all these people acted in a way that demonstrated they believed in God, rather than giving lip service to God.

We see in Hebrews 11:33 your list of OT believers, who, through or by means of faith, conquered kingdoms, behaved properly, obtained blessing from God, and performed miracles.

But the Bottom line, is that you, Deacon, hit the mark, the power that comes through credited faith is from God! Those that believe any blessings flow from or through uncredited faith have another think coming.

 

[Van]

Ever wonder why with faith, we can uproot trees or move mountains? Luke 17:6 and 1 Corinthians 13:2.

If a servant of God is acting according to the will of God, based on his or her full commitment faith, and God has determined to bring that action to fruition, miracles may result. This is what Hebrews 11:2 teaches.

What is the common trait exhibited by those of "little faith?"

​

In Matthew 6:30, rather than being confident of God's necessary provision, they demonstrated their little faith by being unsure of God's provision in the future. ​

​

In Matthew 8:26, Christ's disciples were afraid they might die in the boat, not trusting they would fulfill their future mission as Apostles of Christ.​

In Matthew 14:31, Peter was overcome with doubt about God sustaining him above the surface of the water.​

In Matthew 16:8 Christ disciples were so concerned about worldly needs, enough bread for the need, they missed the meaning of Christ's teaching concerning false doctrine. Just like Soil #3 of Matthew 13, they let worldly concerns choke out Christ's concerns.​

In Luke 12:28, they let worldly concerns about daily provisions, choke out their more important action, to seek first the kingdom of God, while depending on God to supply subordinate needs.​

​

 

[Van]

Now at the other end of the spectrum of faith descriptions, we find the Canaanite women, Matthew 15:28, and the Centurion, Matthew 8:10 and Luke 7:9.

The lady had a poor spirit which means a beggarly spirit, one that considered herself like a dog, but trusting in the provision of the Master. The Centurion, too was begging, not considering himself worthy but trusted in the commanding authority of Christ. Cliff note: God gives grace to the humble but opposes the proud.

 

[percho]

From Galatians 3:23 and 25 YLT because it contains the definite article.

23 And before the coming of the faith,
25 and the faith having come,

Methinks V2 of Heb 11 states the elders were witnessed, that is things took place in their lives unto the coming of, the faith.

Under law until the death and resurrection, afterward under grace, ie under the resurrected Christ.

 

[Van]

From Galatians 3:23 and 25 YLT because it contains the definite article.

23 And before the coming of the faith,
25 and the faith having come,

Methinks V2 of Heb 11 states the elders were witnessed, that is things took place in their lives unto the coming of, the faith.

Under law until the death and resurrection, afterward under grace, ie under the resurrected Christ.

Sir, the definite article, "the" was added to the text by the translators, it is not in the Greek text.

An actual word for word translation of Galatians 3:23 might read: Now before faith came...
And Galatians 3:25 might read: Now that faith has come...

No, Hebrews 11:2 does NOT say or suggest the "elders" of the Jewish tradition were witnesses. They were believers described in the Old Testament.

If you look back to Galatians 3:22 you will find that "faith" refers to "faith in Christ" and the context is the promise might be given based on faith in Christ to those who believe.

 

[percho]

Sir, the definite article, "the" was added to the text by the translators, it is not in the Greek text.

An actual word for word translation of Galatians 3:23 might read: Now before faith came...
And Galatians 3:25 might read: Now that faith has come...

No, Hebrews 11:2 does NOT say or suggest the "elders" of the Jewish tradition were witnesses. They were believers described in the Old Testament.

If you look back to Galatians 3:22 you will find that "faith" refers to "faith in Christ" and the context is the promise might be given based on faith in Christ to those who believe.

Source Blue Letter Bible
Textus Receptus
3:23 Πρὸ τοῦ δὲ ἐλθεῖν τὴν πίστιν ὑπὸ νόμον ἐφρουρούμεθα συγκεκλεισμένοι εἰς τὴν μέλλουσαν πίστιν ἀποκαλυφθῆναι
Morphological GNT
3:23 πρὸ τοῦ δὲ ἐλθεῖν τὴν πίστιν ὑπὸ νόμον ἐφρουρούμεθα συγκλειόμενοι εἰς τὴν μέλλουσαν πίστιν ἀποκαλυφθῆναι

3:25 ἐλθούσης δὲ τῆς πίστεως οὐκέτι ὑπὸ παιδαγωγόν ἐσμεν
3:25 ἐλθούσης δὲ τῆς πίστεως οὐκέτι ὑπὸ παιδαγωγόν ἐσμεν

I know, no Greek but it appears to be there to me.

I looked also at Codex Sinaiticus and it appears to be there also.

It wasn't added it was left out.

 

[Van]

Source Blue Letter Bible
Textus Receptus
3:23 Πρὸ τοῦ δὲ ἐλθεῖν τὴν πίστιν ὑπὸ νόμον ἐφρουρούμεθα συγκεκλεισμένοι εἰς τὴν μέλλουσαν πίστιν ἀποκαλυφθῆναι
Morphological GNT
3:23 πρὸ τοῦ δὲ ἐλθεῖν τὴν πίστιν ὑπὸ νόμον ἐφρουρούμεθα συγκλειόμενοι εἰς τὴν μέλλουσαν πίστιν ἀποκαλυφθῆναι

3:25 ἐλθούσης δὲ τῆς πίστεως οὐκέτι ὑπὸ παιδαγωγόν ἐσμεν
3:25 ἐλθούσης δὲ τῆς πίστεως οὐκέτι ὑπὸ παιδαγωγόν ἐσμεν

I know, no Greek but it appears to be there to me.

I looked also at Codex Sinaiticus and it appears to be there also.

It wasn't added it was left out.

Yes, you are correct, I was wrong, the text does have article! However, the addition or deletion of a Greek article in the English translation is often required to present the idea in English. Thus the article does not seem have any bearing upon the meaning of the verse.

Hebrews 11:2 does NOT say or suggest the "elders" of the Jewish tradition were witnesses. They were believers described in the Old Testament.

If you look back to Galatians 3:22 you will find that "faith" refers to "faith in Christ" and the context is the promise might be given based on faith in Christ to those who believe.

Assuredly by faith the believers of the old testament had their faith credited as righteousness as demonstrated by God's confirming actions.

 

[Van]

Another key to understanding Hebrews 11:2 is also presented by Galatians 3:22. Note the phrase, "to those who believe." God's confirming action, the giving of the promise demonstrates God had confirmed their faith by crediting it as righteousness. Otherwise you are faced with the premise God rewards uncredited faith.

John 1:12 presents the same doctrine, those who believe in "His name" are given the right to become children of God. This verse once again presents the same doctrine, if God credits a person's faith as righteousness, then He bestows His promised blessings.

So when we read, saved by grace through faith, we should understand the meaning is saved by grace through credited faith. To illustrate, the OT believers with credited faith were taken to Abraham's bosom.

 

[percho]

Another key to understanding Hebrews 11:2 is also presented by Galatians 3:22. Note the phrase, "to those who believe." God's confirming action, the giving of the promise demonstrates God had confirmed their faith by crediting it as righteousness. Otherwise you are faced with the premise God rewards uncredited faith.

John 1:12 presents the same doctrine, those who believe in "His name" are given the right to become children of God. This verse once again presents the same doctrine, if God credits a person's faith as righteousness, then He bestows His promised blessings.

So when we read, saved by grace through faith, we should understand the meaning is saved by grace through credited faith. To illustrate, the OT believers with credited faith were taken to Abraham's bosom.

1 Tim 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Why was Paul going down the road to Damascus?
Was he a believer?

And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.



But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

I ask. Had Paul changed his mind relative to Jesus or had God chosen him out of unbelief unto belief?

V 17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus,[fn] who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

I wonder if being filled with the Spirit of truth [see John 16:13] had anything to do with his being a believer?

V 22 of Gal 3 states the means by which one chosen to be a believer is given the promise [of the Holy Spirit see V 14] is out of faith of Jesus Christ.

BTW in V 14, "faith," there is also preceded by, "the," in the Greek.

 

[Van]

1 Tim 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Why was Paul going down the road to Damascus?
Was he a believer?

And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.



But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

I ask. Had Paul changed his mind relative to Jesus or had God chosen him out of unbelief unto belief?

V 17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus,[fn] who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

I wonder if being filled with the Spirit of truth [see John 16:13] had anything to do with his being a believer?

V 22 of Gal 3 states the means by which one chosen to be a believer is given the promise [of the Holy Spirit see V 14] is out of faith of Jesus Christ.

BTW in V 14, "faith," there is also preceded by, "the," in the Greek.

Sir, please stick to the topic, Hebrews 11:2.

Another key to understanding Hebrews 11:2 is also presented by Galatians 3:22. Note the phrase, "to those who believe." God's confirming action, the giving of the promise demonstrates God had confirmed their faith by crediting it as righteousness. Otherwise you are faced with the premise God rewards uncredited faith.

Answer this question with a yes or no. Do you believe God credits the faith of those He chooses for salvation?

 

[Silverhair]

I would think being listed in Hebrews Chapter 11 qualifies as being noted for their faith.

Hebrews 11:1 teaches that an aspect of faith is the assurance or full confidence in what is our hope, the conviction that something is true. Thus all these people acted in a way that demonstrated they believed in God, rather than giving lip service to God.

We see in Hebrews 11:33 your list of OT believers, who, through or by means of faith, conquered kingdoms, behaved properly, obtained blessing from God, and performed miracles.

But the Bottom line, is that you, Deacon, hit the mark, the power that comes through credited faith is from God! Those that believe any blessings flow from or through uncredited faith have another think coming.

What is uncredited faith @Van?

 

[Van]

What is uncredited faith @Van?

Yet another question as a diversion. Will this poster answer the question:
Do you believe God had credited as righteousness the faith of those who "are saved by grace through faith?

It seems this simple question is too difficult for any of the naysayers to answer.

Here is my answer to his question. Anyone whose faith God has NOT credited as righteousness has uncredited faith.

Romans 4 presents the gospel doctrine of credited faith. James describes one form of uncredited faith as "dead faith." We can also read of "little faith" and of lip service. In Matthew 13 we find folks who receive the gospel with joy, yet make no deep seated commitment, so when adversity comes, they fall away, indicating that sort of "faith" will not be credited as righteousness. Ditto for soil #3.

 

[Silverhair]

Yet another question as a diversion. Will this poster answer the question:
Do you believe God had credited as righteousness the faith of those who "are saved by grace through faith?

It seems this simple question is too difficult for any of the naysayers to answer.

Here is my answer to his question. Anyone whose faith God has NOT credited as righteousness has uncredited faith.

Romans 4 presents the gospel doctrine of credited faith. James describes one form of uncredited faith as "dead faith." We can also read of "little faith" and of lip service. In Matthew 13 we find folks who receive the gospel with joy, yet make no deep seated commitment, so when adversity comes, they fall away, indicating that sort of "faith" will not be credited as righteousness. Ditto for soil #3.

My question for you is why do you need to add words Van. Do you think He has to think about whether faith is real or not.

The bible is quite clear Van

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith... Do you see the words God credited their faith first.

Faith is faith Van whether little, even not having works. If it is lip service than that would not be faith would it Van.

 

[Van]

My question for you is why do you need to add words Van. Do you think He has to think about whether faith is real or not.

The bible is quite clear Van

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith... Do you see the words God credited their faith first.

Faith is faith Van whether little, even not having works. If it is lip service than that would not be faith would it Van.

First, folks, note that this poster asks questions but does not answer them.

Next he implies I alter the meaning of scripture.

Next he implies God does not know whether our faith should be credited as righteousness, but using his phrase "real faith."

Next he implies being saved through faith does not necessarily refer to credited faith. Here he seems to suggest we are more likely saved through lip service faith, superficial faith, dead faith or little faith. I say that is nonsense.

Lastly he implies I claim faith is not faith or real faith without works. Did I say or suggest faith must be accomplished by works to result in being credited as righteousness? Nope. So once again a diversionary tactic to avoid discussion of scriptural truth. When we come to faith, is their any delay in God knowing we came to faith? Nope. Any delay in Him either crediting it as righteousness or not? Nope. If He credits the faith as righteousness, is there any delay in transferring the person into Christ spiritually? Nope.

What they seek to hide is the fact scripture teaches God chooses people for salvation during their physical lifetime, not before they were created.

We do not have just one or two or three verses that require election during our physical lifetime we have many. Every time you see "through" faith, think, is this through credited as righteousness faith, or uncredited faith. And the answer of course is "credited faith."

Folks, just read Romans 4.

 

[Silverhair]

First, folks, note that this poster asks questions but does not answer them.

Next he implies I alter the meaning of scripture.

Next he implies God does not know whether our faith should be credited as righteousness, but using his phrase "real faith."

Next he implies being saved through faith does not necessarily refer to credited faith. Here he seems to suggest we are more likely saved through lip service faith, superficial faith, dead faith or little faith. I say that is nonsense.

Lastly he implies I claim faith is not faith or real faith without works. Did I say or suggest faith must be accomplished by works to result in being credited as righteousness? Nope. So once again a diversionary tactic to avoid discussion of scriptural truth. When we come to faith, is their any delay in God knowing we came to faith? Nope. Any delay in Him either crediting it as righteousness or not? Nope. If He credits the faith as righteousness, is there any delay in transferring the person into Christ spiritually? Nope.

What they seek to hide is the fact scripture teaches God chooses people for salvation during their physical lifetime, not before they were created.

We do not have just one or two or three verses that require election during our physical lifetime we have many. Every time you see "through" faith, think, is this through credited as righteousness faith, or uncredited faith. And the answer of course is "credited faith."

Folks, just read Romans 4.

@Van to use an expression that I heard a few days ago.

I think the cheese has slipped of your cracker.