Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
That's a biblical point of view which you pawn off as Calvinism
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Imputed Righteousness
- Thread starter Van
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
One must be spiritually born of God to hear Gods word spiritually Jn 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Whoever is of God listens to God. [Those who belong to God hear the words of God.] This is the reason that you do not listen [to those words, to Me]: because you do not belong to God and are not of God or in harmony with Him.ampc
According to Calvinism anything other than Calvinism is works.
So you belong to a elite group, good luck!
Yet another tangent, to be "of God" is to of the fields white for harvest. Fallen folks who have the capacity to hear and heed God's word, whereas those not "of God" have closed minds. If you believe falsehood is true, then the truth will look like falsehood.
John 8:47 the "of" translates "ek" and is used to indicate influence, so those who listen and learn from the Father are "of God." They are the ones drawn (attracted by God's lovingkindness.
Thus the verse provides absolutely no support for the fiction that a lost person must be regenerated to hear and heed God's revelation. For example Romans 1:20.
Will you say you believe no one is saved unless God credits their faith as righteousness?
Folks we know how all those who believe in "unconditional election" would answer the question, they would say NO, since according to their doctrine of total spiritual inability the lost are unable to seek God or trust in Christ. Never mind Luke 13:24
How would Arminians answer the question. They say God foresaw individuals before creation with foreseen faith, and chose them. It gets a little sketchy when we consider just how God knew their innermost beliefs, before He created their minds to hold such beliefs. It is a do loop, God creates our human spirit within us, thus a unique life force within the fertilized human egg. But when He creates the individual, He already knows every thought and decision that individual will ever make, including those made by "chance." Yep, hangs together quite well...
What if God chooses individuals for salvation through credited faith? That would mean God did not choose individuals through foreseen faith. When did God credit Abraham's faith? After Abraham came to have that faith during his lifetime. The crediting occurs in the present, not before creation. Is that the problem? I do not know...
Folks we know how all those who believe in "unconditional election" would answer the question, they would say NO, since according to their doctrine of total spiritual inability the lost are unable to seek God or trust in Christ. Never mind Luke 13:24
How would Arminians answer the question. They say God foresaw individuals before creation with foreseen faith, and chose them. It gets a little sketchy when we consider just how God knew their innermost beliefs, before He created their minds to hold such beliefs. It is a do loop, God creates our human spirit within us, thus a unique life force within the fertilized human egg. But when He creates the individual, He already knows every thought and decision that individual will ever make, including those made by "chance." Yep, hangs together quite well...
What if God chooses individuals for salvation through credited faith? That would mean God did not choose individuals through foreseen faith. When did God credit Abraham's faith? After Abraham came to have that faith during his lifetime. The crediting occurs in the present, not before creation. Is that the problem? I do not know...
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Maybe you should tell Christ the faith is a work and you can't be saved that way.
Luk 7:50 And Jesus told the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
And you say Paul did not preach a condition of salvation. Sorry BF your wrong again
Gal 2:16 know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith,
Rom 11:6 And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Under the Law of Moses, which no man could keep to attain unto the perfection of righteousness for salvation, God dealt with the Israelites, as a nation, in this way, "If you will, then I shall." And we read about how badly the Israelites, as a nation, failed.
Under the gospel of Christ, in which Christ attained that perfection of righteousness which is imputed to God's elect for salvation, God deals with His elect, now that we are in the fulness of time, in this way, "I will, and you shall." As the success of the gospel is not dependent upon human effort, but is dependent on God's grace, "I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." (1 Corinthians 15:10)
KenH
Well-Known Member
Look at the context of that passage ( as Bloomberg business news tag line says, "Context changes everything." ) .
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
In context, who are the "us-ward"? Obviously, the people that 2 Peter is written to, identified in 2 Peter 1:1 "To them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." And also identified again in 2 Peter 3:8 "But, beloved".
Therefore, the context clearly indicates that the "us-ward" are God's elect and that God has not brought this present heavens and earth to a conclusion yet for the sake of His elect. The present heavens and earth will remain until the last of those whom God chose before the world began have come under the hearing of the gospel of Christ and been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and given saving faith and repentance from dead works. Then, as Peter goes on to state in 2 Peter 3:10-13, Christ will return and this present heavens and earth will be burned up and replaced by the new heavens and earth wherein dwells righteousness.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That is just Gill's opinion which happens to be from a calvinist view point.
Are you now going to say Gill was not a calvinist?
KenH
Well-Known Member
As I stated in my post #150 above, God's elect, just as those whom God reprobated, are born in the flesh as a son of Adam. Their fleshly bodies die just as the bodies of the reprobates do. The souls of God's elect are redeemed, their bodies won't be redeemed to live in the new heavens and earth until the second coming of Christ.
All of God's elect were chosen before the world began:
Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.
KenH
Well-Known Member
"World" means Jews and Gentiles.
One should not assume that "world" means everyone, as there are clear Biblical examples that disprove such an assumption.
A couple of examples come readily to mind:
Luke 2:1
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
Clearly, "world" is not everyone living on the earth at that point in time. "World" is referring to the Roman world, the areas over which Rome ruled at that point in time.
1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Clearly, there are two groups of people mentioned in this verse - those who are of God, and those who are in wickedness. Those who are of God are not included in the word, "world"; those who are of God do not lie in wickedness, they are in Christ.
Amen! Bingo! Glory Hallelujah! Spot on!
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Well there is your first error Ken. No one was prechosen B4 creation. The "elect one" is Christ Jesus and on is only elect when they are in Him through faith.
But going with your errant view then all the reprobate were also prechosen to be sinners so how do you reconcile God judging them for doing just as He determined them to be. Your view does not make God seem to be just at all but actually unjust.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
When the bible was written they only referred to two groups Jews and those that were not Jews, Gentiles. So world would still mean all of humanity Ken.
You do understand context don't you Ken. I know that the calvinsts do tend to ignore it but you should still know what it means.
But here we see that Christ was the atoning sacrifice for believers and also for the whole world.
1Jn 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
And we know Christ came to save whom Ken?
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
Rom 5:6 For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:8 But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
So who are these ungodly sinners that Christ died for
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Well now since we are all sinners and Christ died for sinners then He died to cover the sins of the whole world.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Amen! Bingo! Glory Hallelujah! Spot on!
KY why do you keep posting these silly comments?
Real hard for you to have been saved by grace through faith since you did not exist at the time.
KenH
Well-Known Member
Everything exists for God. God is eternal. God is not time bound like we humans are on this earth.
KenH
Well-Known Member
I don't see the phrase "elect one" in Ephesians 1:3-6. I do see the phrase "chosen us".
God's elect are the "us". Christ would not be called "us".
The apostle Paul dealt with your objection long ago:
Romans 9:10-24
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
( for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Having been declared righteous, then, by [better translation IMHO would be, out of] faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ, Romans 5:1 YLT
Romans 5:9 YLT much more, then, having been declared righteous now in [to] his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
These verses say the same thing. The death [shed blood] of Jesus was the faith of Jesus. That is the saving faith, of anyone who shall be saved.
Heb 5:7,8 who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,
What obedience? The obedience unto death even the death of the cross. That is the faith of Jesus. That is the faith by which and or through which one is declared righteous.
The life, the soul being, of Jesus of Nazareth was in his blood. God, the Father of Jesus laid all our sins upon Jesus who himself was sinless yet gave up his life, soul being, because of our sins and said, "Father unto your hands I commit my spirit." That is a statement of faith. After three days and three nights the Father raised Jesus out of the dead giving Jesus life, soul being, that is not in the blood.
1 Cor 15:46 YLT but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
That verse is about Jesus as much as it is about us. Jesus, V 20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,
That word translated natural is ψυχικόν Soulish like Adam. Adam was the figure of Jesus the Christ.
Romans 5:9 YLT much more, then, having been declared righteous now in [to] his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
These verses say the same thing. The death [shed blood] of Jesus was the faith of Jesus. That is the saving faith, of anyone who shall be saved.
Heb 5:7,8 who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,
What obedience? The obedience unto death even the death of the cross. That is the faith of Jesus. That is the faith by which and or through which one is declared righteous.
The life, the soul being, of Jesus of Nazareth was in his blood. God, the Father of Jesus laid all our sins upon Jesus who himself was sinless yet gave up his life, soul being, because of our sins and said, "Father unto your hands I commit my spirit." That is a statement of faith. After three days and three nights the Father raised Jesus out of the dead giving Jesus life, soul being, that is not in the blood.
1 Cor 15:46 YLT but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
That verse is about Jesus as much as it is about us. Jesus, V 20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,
That word translated natural is ψυχικόν Soulish like Adam. Adam was the figure of Jesus the Christ.
KenH
Well-Known Member
No. Its means that God would not going to be primarily dealing with His elect among Jews, as He did in the Old Testament(with a few notable Gentile exceptions), but His elect would be seen now among Jews and Gentiles.
"World" means God's elect among Jews and Gentiles. If Christ is the propitiation for everyone who ever lived, then everyone who ever lived would be saved.
As the old hymn by Augustus Toplady so clearly states the Biblical truth that anyone for whom Christ propitiated will be saved, especially in the third stanza:
1. From whence this fear and unbelief?
Hast thou, O Father, put to grief
Thy spotless Son for me?
And will the righteous Judge of men
Condemn me for that debt of sin
Which, Lord, was charged on thee?
2. Complete atonement thou hast made,
And to the utmost farthing paid
Whate’er thy people owed;
How then can wrath on me take place,
If sheltered in thy righteousness,
And sprinkled with thy blood?
3. If thou hast my discharge procured,
And freely in my room endured
The whole of wrath divine,
Payment God cannot twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety’s hand,
And then again at mine.
4. Turn, then, my soul, unto thy rest;
The merits of thy great High Priest
Speak peace and liberty;
Trust in his efficacious blood,
Nor fear thy banishment from God,
Since Jesus died for thee.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Remember I said you should understand context Ken.
The us in vs 4 are the Ephesians believers we see in verse 1.
Ken it is your false theology that causes the problems. It is your calvinist false theology that is the problem Ken. He can choose who He wants for service and He condemned Pharaoh for his refusal to honor Him.
What do those verses have to do with whether God is unjust or not. It is the calvinist determi9nism that makes God unjust not scripture.
Your calvinism has God condemn the majority of humanity for no other reason that He choose to do so even though He said He wants all to come to repentance. Sorry Ken but truing to use the bible to cover the errors of your flawed philosophy will not work.