Imputed Righteousness

[Silverhair]

Everything exists for God. God is eternal. God is not time bound like we humans are on this earth.

True but you were not saved prior to freely trusting in Him either. You were not "elect" B4 the foundation of the world.

There is a vast difference between God's foreknowledge of who will freely trust in Him and God causing them to trust in Him. One is biblical the other is calvinism.

 

[kyredneck]

KY why do you keep posting these silly comments?

LOL, they're only silly to shallow Hals like you because it's waaaay too deep for you to grasp....

 

[Silverhair]

No. Its means that God would not going to be primarily dealing with His elect among Jews, as He did in the Old Testament(with a few notable Gentile exceptions), but His elect would be seen now among Jews and Gentiles.

You do have an odd way of reading the word of God.

Not what the bible teaches but you do seem comfortable with following those calvinist teachers.

"World" means God's elect among Jews and Gentiles. If Christ is the propitiation for everyone who ever lived, then everyone who ever lived would be saved.

Propitiation does not equal saved Ken.

Christ's atoning sacrifice did not save anyone but did make it possible for anyone to be saved.

Propitiation: "In theology, the atonement or atoning sacrifice offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners." Webster

"To propitiate is to appease, to atone, to turn away the wrath of an offended person. In the case before us, the wrath turned away is the wrath of God; the person making the propitiation is Christ; the propitiating offering or sacrifice is his blood. All this is expressed in most explicit terms in the following passages: “And he is the propitiation for our sins,” 1Jn_2:2. “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins,” 1Jn_4:10." “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,” Rom_3:25 Watson

"Through the "propitiatory" sacrifice of Christ, he who believes upon Him is by God's own act delivered from justly deserved wrath, and comes under the covenant of grace." Vine NT

 

[Silverhair]

LOL, they're only silly to shallow Hals like you because it's waaaay too deep for you to grasp....

Actually KY I find most of your comments to have very little substance. You just trot out the company line as if it were the truth.

 

[Tea]

The ability to believe comes with the message of the Gospel, all of His doing.

But I do have the free will to accept or reject that message.

The Gospel message is effective only for the elect. It's not effective at all for those who are perishing.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (ESV)
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

The ability to believe comes from the Father.

John 6:65 (ESV)
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

 

[kyredneck]

Actually KY I find most of your comments to have very little substance.

...and I find all of yours' to be shallow claptrap.

 

[Tea]

"If" you jump off a bridge into the water then you will get wet. We know that when you jump into the water you will get wet, that is a fact. But the condition is "IF" you actually jump.

The situation would be conditional if you were the one initiating the action; however, it would not be conditional if the action occurs due to an external force.

 

[Charlie24]

Under the Law of Moses, which no man could keep to attain unto the perfection of righteousness for salvation, God dealt with the Israelites, as a nation, in this way, "If you will, then I shall." And we read about how badly the Israelites, as a nation, failed.

Under the gospel of Christ, in which Christ attained that perfection of righteousness which is imputed to God's elect for salvation, God deals with His elect, now that we are in the fulness of time, in this way, "I will, and you shall." As the success of the gospel is not dependent upon human effort, but is dependent on God's grace, "I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." (1 Corinthians 15:10)

From the very beginning salvation has always been justified by faith!

The Law of Moses pointed to Christ in the inability to be accepted by God in any other way.

If those under the Law were honest with themselves they knew they were guilty before God in doing their best.

That is what the Sacrificial System of the Law was for, they found forgiveness of sin in Slayed Lamb.

 

[Charlie24]

The Gospel message is effective only for the elect. It's not effective at all for those who are perishing.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (ESV)
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

The ability to believe comes from the Father.

John 6:65 (ESV)
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

That's the Calvinist way, pick a verse that works for the theory and quote it!

Let's take a look at your verse in context.

John 6:64-65

"But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

Christ knew there were some who didn't believe and He let them know the door to Him was shut by God without faith.

God will not accept anything from man but repentance and faith in His Son.

 

[Brightfame52]

According to Calvinism anything other than Calvinism is works.

So you belong to a elite group, good luck!

Setting conditions is works

 

[Brightfame52]

Yet another tangent, to be "of God" is to of the fields white for harvest. Fallen folks who have the capacity to hear and heed God's word, whereas those not "of God" have closed minds. If you believe falsehood is true, then the truth will look like falsehood.

John 8:47 the "of" translates "ek" and is used to indicate influence, so those who listen and learn from the Father are "of God." They are the ones drawn (attracted by God's lovingkindness.

Thus the verse provides absolutely no support for the fiction that a lost person must be regenerated to hear and heed God's revelation. For example Romans 1:20.

According to Jesus who hears God's words Jn 8 :47

 

[Brightfame52]

Maybe you should tell Christ the faith is a work and you can't be saved that way.
Luk 7:50 And Jesus told the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

And you say Paul did not preach a condition of salvation. Sorry BF your wrong again
Gal 2:16 know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith,

Rom 11:6 And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

Paul does not preach conditions for salvation, Salvation is of Grace

 

[Brightfame52]

That is just Gill's opinion which happens to be from a calvinist view point.

Are you now going to say Gill was not a calvinist?

It's still a biblical point of view, it's just being rejected as Calvinism

 

[Charlie24]

Setting conditions is works

If I could find anything good about Calvinism it would be their strong stand on faith alone in Christ, apart from any works.

But it seems you can't see that I'm right there with you in that truth.

 

[Van]

According to Jesus who hears God's words Jn 8 :47

Typical diversionary post. Nothing acknowledging agreement or specific disagreement, just another ignore what was said post.

To be "of God" is to be of the fields white for harvest. Fallen folks who have the capacity to hear and heed God's word, whereas those not "of God" have closed minds. If you believe falsehood is true, then the truth will look like falsehood.

In John 8:47 the "of" in the phrase "of God" translates the Greek preposition "ek" and is used to indicate influence, so those who listen and learn from the Father are "of God." They are the ones drawn (attracted by God's lovingkindness).

Note that the prior post answered the diversionary question, "fallen folks that have the capacity to hear and heed God's word, and are the subset of fallen humanity that is "of God" and comprise the "fields white for harvest."

 

[Tea]

That's the Calvinist way, pick a verse that works for the theory and quote it!

No sir, we don’t cherry-pick verses; we look at the whole context. John 6:65 is a restatement of John 6:44.

John 6:44 (ESV)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The only way for someone to come to the Son is if the Father has first given them to Him. Later, it is further explained why this does not apply to everyone.

John 8:47 (ESV)
Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

In order to hear Jesus’ words and approach Him, one must be of God. In other words, they lack the capacity to do so. It's interesting to see how numerous evangelicals interpret this, believing that they don't hear God's words simply because they choose not to listen.

It’s unconditional election on fully display and it’s what Jesus taught.

 

[Brightfame52]

If I could find anything good about Calvinism it would be their strong stand on faith alone in Christ, apart from any works.

But it seems you can't see that I'm right there with you in that truth.

Setting conditions is works salvation and against Grace salvation

 

[Charlie24]

No sir, we don’t cherry-pick verses; we look at the whole context. John 6:65 is a restatement of John 6:44.

John 6:44 (ESV)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The only way for someone to come to the Son is if the Father has first given them to Him. Later, it is further explained why this does not apply to everyone.

John 8:47 (ESV)
Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

In order to hear Jesus’ words and approach Him, one must be of God. In other words, they lack the capacity to do so. It's interesting to see how numerous evangelicals interpret this, believing that they don't hear God's words simply because they choose not to listen.

It’s unconditional election on fully display and it’s what Jesus taught.

Back up 2 verses to John 8:44,

Christ is telling them "you are of your father the devil" truth cannot be understood without faith.

They could not hear because they didn't want to hear.

Those who want the truth and desire it will receive the truth and they will hear God's words and believe.

The Church is filled with these who will not hear the truth but make up their own truth as these Pharisees did.

The choice is not made by God, it's left to the individual.

This Scripture is not saying God has chosen who will hear the truth and believe, you are adding that!

 

[Brightfame52]

They could not hear because they didn't want to hear.

They did not have the ability to hear because they were not of God

 

[Brightfame52]

Back up 2 verses to John 8:44,

By being the children of the devil Christ wasn't going to die for them, Christ died to gather in the children of God Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.