How do Reformed Baptists Reconcile Determinism & Small Families

[JD731]

Biblical teaching and doctrinal evidence indicates that the will of God is large families. We have lots of Reformed where I live and I know several of them. Most of them have about 2 children. If he, God, really determines all things according to his character and no one can change it, shouldn't we see more consistency between what he determines relative to the size of families that we see now?

What gives here? Are the Reformed proving a will of their own or has God changed in these last days and he just does not desire as many elect? One can hope these Reformed are not practicing birth control in order to alter the will of God and keep their families small according to their own wills. That would certainly conflict with determinism, wouldn't it?

Psa 127:4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

Any thoughts?

 

[JD731]

What I am seeing here is God has made us all subject to natural laws and his regulation of them. He holds us accountable for manipulation of those laws for our own ends outside of his will. Example; Gen 38 where God killed a man for doing that. I am not seeing determinism in that act.

 

[JD731]

I am seeing that God has elected to provide salvation for all that a man and woman through the natural process has decided to conceive and the number is not fixed in eternity past. This seems to be the correct Baptist teaching and the number seems to be in the hands of the man and woman.

 

[Ascetic X]

Biblical teaching and doctrinal evidence indicates that the will of God is large families. We have lots of Reformed where I live and I know several of them. Most of them have about 2 children. If he, God, really determines all things according to his character and no one can change it, shouldn't we see more consistency between what he determines relative to the size of families that we see now?

What gives here? Are the Reformed proving a will of their own or has God changed in these last days and he just does not desire as many elect? One can hope these Reformed are not practicing birth control in order to alter the will of God and keep their families small according to their own wills. That would certainly conflict with determinism, wouldn't it?

Psa 127:4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

Any thoughts?

Then again, the apostle Paul said it would be best to not get married, so you can serve the Lord without being distracted by attending to a spouse.

The elect are not generated only by offspring of Christian parents, but also by evangelism toward non-family members. There is no guarantee that children of godly parents will necessarily be in the ranks of the elect.

Large family production is never mentioned or encouraged anywhere in the New Testament. Jesus even said a man’s enemies can arise in his own household.

The Quiverfull movement, exemplified by the Duggar family (“19 Kids and Counting” tv show), did champion the idea of eschewing contraception, and having a large number of children, as “weapons in the culture wars” — but that meant the older children had to function as parents to the younger kids. Plus the movement experienced some negative publicity from the Josh Duggar scandals and the critique of blanket training, etc. of Bill Gothard’s controversial Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP), which the Duggars are involved with.

I Corinthians 7:7-9

7 I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. 8 Now to the unmarried and widows I say this: It is good for them to remain unmarried, as I am. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.…

 

[Salty]

Biblical teaching and doctrinal evidence indicates that the will of God is large families. We have lots of Reformed where I live and I know several of them. Most of them have about 2 children.

Gen 1:28 says "28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth"
1) we have done that ! Current population of the world is 8 billion people.
2) Currently in many societies, children are no longer an asset, rather they are a liability. --
For example on a farm - having many children assisted with the farm. Today, especially with a higher standard of living, as well as new laws,
having children can be very expensive. Having children we cannot afford, knowing that we can claim govt assistance, such as food stamps, ect is NOT a way that the Lord would want us to depend on!

 

[JD731]

Then again, the apostle Paul said it would be best to not get married, so you can serve the Lord without being distracted by attending to a spouse.

The elect are not generated only by offspring of Christian parents, but also by evangelism toward non-family members. There is no guarantee that children of godly parents will necessarily be in the ranks of the elect.

Large family production is never mentioned or encouraged anywhere in the New Testament. Jesus even said a man’s enemies can arise in his own household.

The Quiverfull movement, exemplified by the Duggar family (“19 Kids and Counting” tv show), did champion the idea of eschewing contraception, and having a large number of children, as “weapons in the culture wars” — but that meant the older children had to function as parents to the younger kids. Plus the movement experienced some negative publicity from the Josh Duggar scandals and the critique of blanket training, etc. of Bill Gothard’s controversial Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP), which the Duggars are involved with.

I Corinthians 7:7-9

7 I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. 8 Now to the unmarried and widows I say this: It is good for them to remain unmarried, as I am. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.…

I think you agree with my point. If a man and woman decides the size of their families, and they often do, then God does not determine it no matter what his will is. Natural laws govern among the just and the unjust. My post is about how unreasonable the Reformed doctrine of determinism really is. But it is just one of many examples.

 

[JD731]

Gen 1:28 says "28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth"
1) we have done that ! Current population of the world is 8 billion people.
2) Currently in many societies, children are no longer an asset, rather they are a liability. --
For example on a farm - having many children assisted with the farm. Today, especially with a higher standard of living, as well as new laws,
having children can be very expensive. Having children we cannot afford, knowing that we can claim govt assistance, such as food stamps, ect is NOT a way that the Lord would want us to depend on!

Not having a clue whether this is true but I heard one time if every person who has ever lived on the earth was given a 3 ft square to stand on, half the state of Texas would suffice for them all. If that is true it would give an awful lot of room to expand. Also, at the beginning of the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth, all the mountains and high, hills will be melted and levelled and the topography will match that of the pre- flood world and all the earth will be habitable. Those on the earth in the beginning of Christ's reign will be few and they will never die. Only those who are born during that time will be subject to death and at the end there will be billions.

Isaiah 24:6
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. (but all of them saved)

saiah 64:3
When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.

I always say, "believe the words."

 

[Ascetic X]

I read somewhere that born again believers of the church are God’s way to replace the angels who followed rebellious Lucifer and fell from heaven. Angels are said to be “sons of God” in a certain sense, so one new set of sons of God is replacing the former set.

St. Augustine, Enchiridion ad Laurentium, Chapter 29

THE RESTORED PART OF HUMANITY SHALL, IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE PROMISES OF GOD, SUCCEED TO THE PLACE WHICH THE REBELLIOUS ANGELS LOST

“…(redeemed humans) should fill up the gap which the rebellion and fall of the devils had left in the company of the angels. For this is the promise to the saints, that at the resurrection they shall be equal to the angels of God. And thus the Jerusalem which is above, which is the mother of us all, the city of God, shall not be spoiled of any of the number of her citizens, shall perhaps reign over even a more abundant population. We do not know the number either of the saints or of the devils; but we know that the children of the holy mother who was called barren on earth shall succeed to the place of the fallen angels, and shall dwell for ever in that peaceful abode from which they fell.”

In fact, some theological interpretations suggest that redeemed humans will indeed fill the void left by the fallen angels, but in a way that is more glorious and elevated. The idea is that the elect are destined for a more prominent role than the fallen angels' original position, even being said to one day "judge angels".

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In my church we have two young(ish) men who serve as elders. One has four children; the other has five

 

[JD731]

I read somewhere that born again believers of the church are God’s way to replace the angels who followed rebellious Lucifer and fell from heaven. Angels are said to be “sons of God” in a certain sense, so one new set of sons of God is replacing the former set.

St. Augustine, Enchiridion ad Laurentium, Chapter 29

THE RESTORED PART OF HUMANITY SHALL, IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE PROMISES OF GOD, SUCCEED TO THE PLACE WHICH THE REBELLIOUS ANGELS LOST

“…(redeemed humans) should fill up the gap which the rebellion and fall of the devils had left in the company of the angels. For this is the promise to the saints, that at the resurrection they shall be equal to the angels of God. And thus the Jerusalem which is above, which is the mother of us all, the city of God, shall not be spoiled of any of the number of her citizens, shall perhaps reign over even a more abundant population. We do not know the number either of the saints or of the devils; but we know that the children of the holy mother who was called barren on earth shall succeed to the place of the fallen angels, and shall dwell for ever in that peaceful abode from which they fell.”

In fact, some theological interpretations suggest that redeemed humans will indeed fill the void left by the fallen angels, but in a way that is more glorious and elevated. The idea is that the elect are destined for a more prominent role than the fallen angels' original position, even being said to one day "judge angels".

It is my understanding that angels are spirits. He 1:14. All those sentient beings who are called by the scriptures "sons of God" are also created beings. You can check me on this. The angels before their fall in Ge 6 and also in Job 1. Adam in Lk 3:38. Jesus Christ as it pertained to his physical body, Re 3:14, members of the church of Christ both individually and collectively, 2 Cor 5:17. These references are not exhaustive.

So there are 2 (two) collective agents who are said to be sons of God, both will be eventually permanently indwelt with the person of God, his Spirit. I will name both without commentary.

Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

The resurrections are all physical which leaves resurrected beings out as becoming angels.

That is the way I see the scriptures.

But back to the subject. It seems it would be impossible for God to predetermine all things with out violating his holy character.

 

[DaveXR650]

But back to the subject. It seems it would be impossible for God to predetermine all things with out violating his holy character.

It would but the Reformed idea of determinism also includes things that God knows will happen and has decided in his wisdom to allow to happen. Would you say that God know what is going to happen and if it happens then he has allowed it to happen? If so you share the Reformed concept of determinism.

 

[kyredneck]

if it happens then he has allowed it to happen

Zactly!

 

[JD731]

It would but the Reformed idea of determinism also includes things that God knows will happen and has decided in his wisdom to allow to happen. Would you say that God know what is going to happen and if it happens then he has allowed it to happen? If so you share the Reformed concept of determinism.

Dave, come and let us reason together. If your course is already predetermined by an all powerful being then another course is not possible and not allowed. An action that over rules the determined course is called free will and another principle besides absolute sovereignty is involved by the sovereign. An action that violates the will of the sovereign is defined as sin. No one who does not willing and with knowledge and forethought act in defiance of God will ever be guilty of sin.

Determinism is not the correct word to define God. Providence is the correct word if I get to choose one.

 

[JD731]

Zactly!

Gotta luv you, ky but "predetermined" and "allowed" should not be in the same theological sentence, no?

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave, come and let us reason together. If your course is already predetermined by an all powerful being then another course is not possible and not allowed. An action that over rules the determined course is called free will and another principle besides absolute sovereignty is involved by the sovereign. An action that violates the will of the sovereign is defined as sin. No one who does not willing and with knowledge and forethought act in defiance of God will ever be guilty of sin.

Determinism is not the correct word to define God. Providence is the correct word if I get to choose one.

Providence is a better word. I'm just giving you a heads up that you have a wrong view of Reformed determinism. It's just a fact that actual free choices of humans are indeed included in determinism. I know of no Calvinist or Reformed Baptists who ever says that it doesn't matter if they actively try to do God's will or not because everything is predetermined. I have heard a joke that goes like this: "How many Presbyterians does it take to change a light bulb? None. If God wants the light bulb changed he'll change it." I thought that was funny. But then again I apparently was predestined to be somewhat of a dork.

 

[canadyjd]

I have heard a joke that goes like this: "How many Presbyterians does it take to change a light bulb? None. If God wants the light bulb changed he'll change it." I thought that was funny. But then again I apparently was predestined to be somewhat of a dork.

How many “free willers” does it take to change a light bulb?

None because they don’t realize they are living in the dark.

Peace to you

 

[JD731]

Providence is a better word. I'm just giving you a heads up that you have a wrong view of Reformed determinism. It's just a fact that actual free choices of humans are indeed included in determinism. I know of no Calvinist or Reformed Baptists who ever says that it doesn't matter if they actively try to do God's will or not because everything is predetermined. I have heard a joke that goes like this: "How many Presbyterians does it take to change a light bulb? None. If God wants the light bulb changed he'll change it." I thought that was funny. But then again I apparently was predestined to be somewhat of a dork.

Well Dave, you are more of a moderate Calvinist than most on this forum and that is something to like about you. However, moderate as you are, your Reformed view of how God interacts with men still causes you to have several false or skewed foundational doctrines concerning God, man, sin, life, death, the world, prophecy, the dictionary and a host of other biblical teachings.

Now, putting my op subject in this perspective of providence rather than determinist, here is an example of how it works. God would allow a sinner to rape a woman even though the sinner knows it is against the will of God but still God will not suspend the natural law that governs procreation and if all cycles are aligned when this act occurs there will be a conception as a result. This will change many lives. Surely no one would be so numb as to teach that God has determined this to happen and nothing can change it. This bastard son produced by this act would not have been planned by God in eternity past but God has made a way for him to be saved through Jesus Christ and his sacrifice in spite of it.

This is good news, glad tidings from God to all humanity regardless of their earthly circumstances.

 

[DaveXR650]

@JD731. William Carey was once told by an older pastor "Sit down young man. When God wants to save the heathen he will do it without your help or mine". But Carey didn't listen and went on to basically start the great world wide missions movement. And he was a Calvinist. John Knox, the Puritan, who is credited with starting the Scottish Reformation, is famous for his prayer "Give me Scotland or I die!" And he was a Calvinist.

You make a valid point and I don't want to deny that but it is not a universal problem with Calvinism. I have noticed that most of the time, if someone knocks on my door or gives me a tract it is a fundamental Baptist or someone from the Holiness church down the street. But the Reformed Baptist church I was a member of has been through this neighborhood too. And, if you go to a Bengals home game, you often hear a crazy guy with a bull horn preaching to everyone waiting to get in the stadium. I know him and he is a strict 5 point Calvinist.

My only real point, joking aside, is that there may not be as much difference with Reformed Baptists as you think. The philosophical views of the precise definition of free will and determinism may not affect the average member of either type of church.

 

[Salty]

@JD731

My only real point, joking aside, is that there may not be as much difference with Reformed Baptists as you think. The philosophical views of the precise definition of free will and determinism may not affect the average member of either type of church.

I was told of a church in Germany (English speaking [mainly US military]) that on visitation night 20 would show up - 2 would go door knocking - the other 18 would stay at the church to pray. In addition, Sunday School was for age 4 & below. Age 5 & up would attend the adult SS class.

 

[Ben1445]

Gen 1:28 says "28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth"
1) we have done that ! Current population of the world is 8 billion people.
2) Currently in many societies, children are no longer an asset, rather they are a liability. --
For example on a farm - having many children assisted with the farm. Today, especially with a higher standard of living, as well as new laws,
having children can be very expensive. Having children we cannot afford, knowing that we can claim govt assistance, such as food stamps, ect is NOT a way that the Lord would want us to depend on!

It is possible to have lots of children and not take government assistance. And also do it in the “poverty level.” Standards of living might need some adjustment, but “substandard” living is not necessarily poor quality.