John 15:2, 'Every branch in me...'

[Deacon]

The study group I attend has been going over the Gospel of John.
We discussed the beginning of John 15:1-17 this week.
There were a lot of questions... and even commentaries are divided on the SPECIFIC meaning of passage.

Questions:

• Who are the one's that don't bear fruit and what happens to them?
• Who are the ones who bear fruit, and what happens to them?
• What do we learn about being fruitful from this passage?
• Does fruit bearing involve trying really hard?
• Is there a difference between ‘abiding IN Jesus’ and ‘abiding WITH Jesus’?
• What does it mean to abide in Christ? How do we abide in Christ?

Here's my take.... (at least how I understand it this morning - lol)

Every Christian has periods of fruitfulness and periods of unfruitfulness.
This is simply part of the process of transformation, as we grow closer to God, (Romans 12:1-2).
We call it sanctification, the process by which believers are transformed into the likeness of Jesus Christ.
Sanctification encompasses an immediate change of status for a new believer (they instantly become connected to the body), and a gradual lifelong process of transformation (a growth in holiness through the work of the Holy Spirit), (Galatians 5:16-25).

Abiding encompasses the process of sanctification. During a believer’s sanctification there are ups and downs, periods of great fruitfulness and periods of less fruitfulness; yes, even periods of unfruitfulness. One can’t abide in Christ unless they're connected to the Vine. We can’t do it on our own, the Holy Spirit produces the fruit, it’s an ongoing process.

The phrase, “in me” (John 15:2) should not be interpreted to mean the same thing as Paul’s phase,““in Christ”. There are some who might profess to be believers while not truly following Jesus; every person who professes to be a disciple (a branch) is not necessarily a true follower. A branch that does not bear fruit is dead, it is taken away. A believer that bears fruit is pruned, shaped by the Holy Spirit into a greater holiness.

In the context of John 15, the Pharasee's professed to be true believers; by their heritage they were connected to the vine, however they did not bear the fruit of belief, (Judas, as well, was once connected but produced no fruit). Israel wasn’t the true vine, Jesus was, (Jesus you might say was the new Israel).

Rob

 

[Ben1445]

There are several levels at which this teaching can be applied. Which is what is being taught I will not attempt to answer at this moment.
1. At the broadest level of application, all are connected to the vine.
Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Those who do not dwell/abide in the vine where their life is derived from are cast away.
2. Narrowed application teaches that only the born again are the branches.

Application may be made from both perspectives without being inaccurate.
I have known Christians who have laid aside their Christian duties despite the encouragement to be faithful, and were, afterwards, separated from this life.
While application from perspective 1 lends thinking towards world judgement in the end of this world.

Christians are supposed to bear fruit. But love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc. are fruits of the Spirit not fruits of the believer. They are the result of living in the Spirit. They are not works of our flesh.
The same teaching is here with Christ. Abide in Him. Live in Christ.
The teenage rebellious years are not required or given. It is the choice of the individual to be rebellious.
By way of biblical example, what period of Paul’s life was his unfruitful time? Or did he abide in Christ continually so that he could say that for him to live was Christ?

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings to you Deacon. Peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

The study group I attend has been going over the Gospel of John.
We discussed the beginning of John 15:1-17 this week.
There were a lot of questions... and even commentaries are divided on the SPECIFIC meaning of passage.

Questions:

• Who are the one's that don't bear fruit and what happens to them?

I'm going to present other parables as possible sources of understanding.
Parable of the Sower (Matt 13: 3-9, 18-23; Luk 8:5-8, 11-15; Mar 4:7, 14-16, 18-20)

In the Parable of the Sower, I it is reasonable to think that soils #1-3 are not saved and the soils of #4 are saved. #4 has "soils" (plural) because it distinguishes in Matthew 13:23 those #4s that produce "some hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty".

My point here is that save people produce fruit (period). Some not very much, others much. But the saved, with the Spirit within, produce some fruit. Those that do not produce true fruit, well, those are the unsaved. So to answer your first bullet point, those on the vine that do not produce fruit are the unsaved (those that will not believe, have faith, and fall away.

What happens to them is like Matthew 25:31-46, the parable of the sheep and goats, or the parable of the fig tree, or like salt it is to be cast out and tramples under the feet of men. I do agree with the other poster that in the broader sense, all start on the vine. Just like the parable of the sower in which all the soils received the sowing of the seed and most, all but one, received it with joy. But some fell away and produced not fruit.

Who are the ones who bear fruit, and what happens to them?

They get life from the Vine, i.e., eternal life.

What do we learn about being fruitful from this passage?

The parable over and over again says, abide in Me. I actually think the lesson is less about being fruitful (but of course it has something to do with it) and more about a lesson of we must abide in Christ. That is the only way to actually be fruitful. Stop trying to do it on your own and abide in Him.

Does fruit bearing involve trying really hard?

It involves abiding in Christ as the only way.

Is there a difference between ‘abiding IN Jesus’ and ‘abiding WITH Jesus’?

yes... . Ran out of time.

Peace to you brother.

 

[Van]

Great topic. Thanks!

I disagree with the statement, "abiding" encompasses the process of "progressive" sanctification, the lifelong process to become more Christ-like. I think to "abide" refers to positional sanctification, the spiritual relocation of a lost person residing in Adam, also called the realm of darkness, to within Christ. If we have been transferred spiritually into Christ, we abide in Christ.

John 15:4 NKJV
“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

The key is to recognize the difference between John 15:2, where someone is "in" Me and John 15:4 where someone abides in Christ. I agree with you, to simply be "in Me" in this context refers to someone who has faith or professes to have faith in Christ, to be a follower of Christ, but are not saved, Christ does NOT abide in them.

This view rips up those who claim if a person professes faith, they are automatically saved. But as yet, none explain why Soils #2 and 3 were not saved, let alone those of Matthew 7 who said, "Lord, Lord."

 

[Ben1445]

I have suggested before that the seed is the Word of God as preached to the kingdom of God.
If the Word preached is the Word of salvation, then the fruitful ground must be that ground that is considered born again.
If it is preached on another subject, say, how the citizens of the kingdom should behave, how the ground is prepared to receive the Word makes all the difference in the results of the hearing.
This is not an acceptable answer for the majority of Reformed, particularly the determinate leaning. Most of them, especially those who are determinists to the last degree, see that as blaming the Holy Spirit for not preparing the ground.
Jesus, on the other hand told His disciples to “take heed therefore how ye hear.”
The last time I suggested that it has to do with more than salvation only, I thought I might have been voted off the site for heresy if a vote had been called.
It is not commonly presented this way but the kingdom is far more than salvation and the Word of it to be preached, much farther reaching into our lives than salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Clearly Paul must have been mistaken. If the man is made of grade 4 dirt, there is nothing to make him unfruitful. If he is anything less than grade 4, he couldn’t possibly be born again…
…Or the common teaching isn’t completely accurate.

 

[kyredneck]

In the context of John 15, the Pharasee's professed to be true believers; by their heritage they were connected to the vine, however they did not bear the fruit of belief, (Judas, as well, was once connected but produced no fruit). Israel wasn’t the true vine, Jesus was, (Jesus you might say was the new Israel).

Bingo! I agree.

"The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed."

By their fruits you shall know them.

 

[Charlie24]

The study group I attend has been going over the Gospel of John.
We discussed the beginning of John 15:1-17 this week.
There were a lot of questions... and even commentaries are divided on the SPECIFIC meaning of passage.

Questions:

• Who are the one's that don't bear fruit and what happens to them?
• Who are the ones who bear fruit, and what happens to them?
• What do we learn about being fruitful from this passage?
• Does fruit bearing involve trying really hard?
• Is there a difference between ‘abiding IN Jesus’ and ‘abiding WITH Jesus’?
• What does it mean to abide in Christ? How do we abide in Christ?

Here's my take.... (at least how I understand it this morning - lol)

Every Christian has periods of fruitfulness and periods of unfruitfulness.
This is simply part of the process of transformation, as we grow closer to God, (Romans 12:1-2).
We call it sanctification, the process by which believers are transformed into the likeness of Jesus Christ.
Sanctification encompasses an immediate change of status for a new believer (they instantly become connected to the body), and a gradual lifelong process of transformation (a growth in holiness through the work of the Holy Spirit), (Galatians 5:16-25).

Abiding encompasses the process of sanctification. During a believer’s sanctification there are ups and downs, periods of great fruitfulness and periods of less fruitfulness; yes, even periods of unfruitfulness. One can’t abide in Christ unless they're connected to the Vine. We can’t do it on our own, the Holy Spirit produces the fruit, it’s an ongoing process.

The phrase, “in me” (John 15:2) should not be interpreted to mean the same thing as Paul’s phase,““in Christ”. There are some who might profess to be believers while not truly following Jesus; every person who professes to be a disciple (a branch) is not necessarily a true follower. A branch that does not bear fruit is dead, it is taken away. A believer that bears fruit is pruned, shaped by the Holy Spirit into a greater holiness.

In the context of John 15, the Pharasee's professed to be true believers; by their heritage they were connected to the vine, however they did not bear the fruit of belief, (Judas, as well, was once connected but produced no fruit). Israel wasn’t the true vine, Jesus was, (Jesus you might say was the new Israel).

Rob

The way I see it, the one who Abides in Him" is the one who bears fruit. We're talking about abiding in faith.

The one who holds strong to his faith will bear fruit. Some 30, some 60, some 100 fold.

I believe the only fruit that can be brought forth, that God will accept, is not us trying, it's the fruit the Holy Spirit has planned for us and laid in our path. It's all of His doing and if we are in any spiritual mindset at all we will be able to see what He has laid in our path to bring forth fruit.

 

[37818]

John 15:5, I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Galatians 5:22-23, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

John 15:6, If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

1 John 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

2 John 1:9, Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

 

[Charlie24]

John 15:5, I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Galatians 5:22-23, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

John 15:6, If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

1 John 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

2 John 1:9, Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

In 1 John 3:6 he is speaking of practicing sin over and over without regard or trying to overcome it.

We know that we all sin from time to time and we know that we know Him, so we know John is speaking of continuing to practice sin.

 

[Charlie24]

In 1 John 3:6 he is speaking of practicing sin over and over without regard or trying to overcome it.

We know that we all sin from time to time and we know that we know Him, so we know John is speaking of continuing to practice sin.

Easier said than done, I know, but our goal should be to have no known sin in our lives that we keep repeating.

 

[37818]

In 1 John 3:6 he is speaking of practicing sin over and over without regard or trying to overcome it.

We know that we all sin from time to time and we know that we know Him, so we know John is speaking of continuing to practice sin.

1 John 3:6a, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: . . .
Has put on Christ as one's Savior.
[Not any kind of sinless perfection]

1 John 3:6c, whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
One who has not received Christ as Savior.