Lol, I dare say that's pretty much the norm with most of us Charlie.
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- Thread starter Ben1445
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Lol, I dare say that's pretty much the norm with most of us Charlie.
Wow. 'Assuming' Genesis 3:15 to be the 'germ of all prophecy' (A.W. Pink), that's quite a profound statement on your part Dave.
He was praying for His own (only), NOT for the devil, that was ignorantly 'wrapped up' in the heat of the moment
John Chapter 17 -
9 | I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine: |
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It seems that people have assumed that since the animals didn’t volunteer themselves that Jesus has not volunteered Himself.
But Jesus said that no man takes His life from Him. He laid it down Himself.
He did indeed 'suffer the wrath of Satan', willingly. All through His ministry to 'the lost sheep of Israel' Satan sought to kill Him through his own.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Well, he was praying for the humans around him participating in his crucifixion. In addition to that it is said in scripture that he must be delivered into the hands of wicked men. Those statements, in my opinion don't help the theory that the purpose of this was to be punished by Satan, as a trick, or whatever the reason the ECF's thought.
Just to be clear. I don't have a problem with Satan wanting Christ to be destroyed and trying to kill him if he could. I don't have any evidence that Satan consciously wanted to stop the crucifixion because he knew what was happening. I from scriptures that Jesus metaphorically called Peter "Satan" when he tried to prevent this so I understand the argument.
Do you understand how the Serpent took form in this temporal realm?
Or do you just refuse to believe it?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Absolutely. Jesus volunteered himself and declared it as his mission. He did things to provoke the rulers to act in this way. I am Calvinist enough to believe that evil men, while not made evil by God, at some point can be used by God to do evil things according to His plan. I guess that could even apply to Satan. All I know is that if Jon and Ky want to believe the atonement was about Jesus suffering under Satan and have that be the main thrust of the atonement then I say "baloney". What Jesus suffered was what we would have been destined for under the hand of God. Maybe not in exactly the same way because we are only men and not also divine, but the principle is there.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Why would you say that? Are you trying to say that I don't believe that the scribes and pharisees were in the camp and working under or with Satan? The question is did the atoning work of Christ, at the level of what it actually did for us as humans, have to do with our own offenses against God and the earned and necessary judgement from that holy God - or were we neutral bystanders and Jesus mission was to give some satisfaction to Satan.
Egad Dave, we've been here before. The story of Joseph and his suffering from his brothers, probably the most complete type of Christ:
20 And as for you, ye meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Gen 50
It may not be what is intended or believed, but the idea that somehow Satan has any authority to judge men is flawed. Satan is the accuser and not the judge. Satan will not be in charge of Hell. Hell is a place of torment that was prepared for the devil and his angels and not intended for mankind. But it will be shared with men who have followed the devil. Man is, in creation, in the image of God. We begin our lives by the creative act of God. And yet sinful men are told that they are of their father the devil. This is clearly not in a physical sense. But as Adam followed Satan in the garden, mankind follows the wickedness of Satan still. Authority of Satan? Only when authority is relinquished to him.
Is Satan more powerful than men. We are not angels. He has more power than we do. We were not told that we are greater than he that is in the world. It is He who is in us that is greater than he that is in the world. The devils are subject to their Creator. Jesus came and took on Himself the curse given to men. This curse was not issued by Satan. Satan also received a curse of his own. Our responsibility in sin lies between ourselves and God. Satan may tempt us to sin, but that doesn’t ever give him authority to judge anyone. It makes him complicit in the wrong and worthy of judgment.
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Once again you have jumped in on a subject late and started throwing bombs. That is what I was talking about. God can use evil men for his purposes and even have them do specific sins and yet they are still acting by their own free wills, and are still completely responsible for their evil actions.
But that's not what we were talking about. Some are saying that the purpose of the atoning work of Christ was to somehow appease Satan. I say the problem was our situation before God, and the propitiation and expiation of sin in the atonement was to fix what we had done to God. And Satan was not involved in that.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
You said it better than I could and certainly more concise. Maybe even @kyredneck will be able to read this.
Yes! Absolutely we were! I never drove any of those nails into His hands or feet, the Serpent did, through his emissaries.
These were not just 'any ol' evil men. They were children of the devil that did the works of the devil, fulfilling the 'germ of all prophecy' - Genesis 3:15.
It doesn’t matter how much bruising happens.
When someone lands a haymaker, it doesn’t make them the local magistrate, even if they think it.
???
When Satan bruised Christ, it didn’t make him the judge or executioner. Satan had no authority to do anything to Jesus. Jesus laid down his own life. Satan didn’t do anything judicially.
If you punch someone, you may feel like their judge and executioner, but the only thing that you have done is usurped authority.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
These two posts show what concerns me about Jon's views on the atonement and possibly the views of the early church. The truth is, while I hope had I been there, that I would not have participated and cheered but that I would have been disappointed and devastated, not knowing what was going on. And my first gut reaction would have been, I hope, that we had just suffered a horrible defeat at the hands of evil. So I agree with you at some level on that.
But there is also a sense in which my salvation depends upon me understanding that indeed he suffered for me, and had I not been a sinner he would not have had to do this. I think there were some who opposed Jesus at first and then later came around, maybe even some who were in the crowd. I know that other scripture speaks of us as being in the camp of sinners. I fully believe that Paul would have been that crowd until Christ got a hold of him.
So you have hit on an important point in that while I can understand the cosmic aspects of Christ defeating Satan I think that to the extent that anyone refuses to put themselves in on the blame for Christ's death is treading upon dangerous ground. Owen thought that denying penal substitution was a damnable heresy. And I think he was right, if it is attacked purposely, and with full knowledge it could be a damnable heresy.
(Sorry for all the words Ky. Take it slow and I divided it into paragraphs so it would be easier.)