Archangel Michael being the Angel of Jehovah.

[JesusFan]

The idea that Michael was Christ pre-incarnate was popular in the 18th century. Ultimately there is not enough information to make that claim.

Michaels cannot be the Lord Jesus,

• Daniel 10:13, 21: Michael is described as "one of the chief princes" who came to help a messenger angel against the "prince of the kingdom of Persia," showing his power in spiritual warfare.
• Daniel 12:1: He is called "the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people," highlighting his role as protector of Israel.
• • Jude 1:9: He disputes with the devil over the body of Moses, demonstrating his authority.
  • NOT God, as he appears as archangel
  • Jesus was THE Angel of the Lord preincanate in OT, Spoke for Yahweh and also as Yahweh Himself

 

[GentleGospeller]

The idea that Michael was Christ pre-incarnate was popular in the 18th century. Ultimately there is not enough information to make that claim.

It was not merely the 18th century that it was "popular", but is found in nearly all the writings of the Reformation (such as Luther, Melanchthon, Hengstenberg, and hundreds of others, &c) against Roman Catholicism, and existed in print since the 1st century throughout unto the present day, beyond what the Bible (OT-NT) says on the subject already since 1550 BCish (when Moses, by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, wrote). Please see the previous responses for futher detail in link format.

 

[Oseas3]

Michaels cannot be the Lord Jesus,

Michael and JESUS are two distincts Persons. JESUS is the Savior, Michael is the Warrior. Michael is not the Word made flesh, JESUS is, from everlasting to everlasting. The prophecies of the birth of both are distincts, very different of one another. One of the main prophecy of the Word made flesh-JESUS-, is written in Isaiah 9:6->6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given(here, the prophecy does not speak of a virgin mother, but we know that JESUS was born of a virgin-Matthew 1:19-21): and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Revelation 1:8->8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

OTOH , Michael's birth is someting like the birth of another angel called John the Baptist, whose birth was prophesied by Isaiah: -> Isaiah 40:3-5 combined with Matthew 11:10-15, take a look. We can see by the Word of GOD that Isaiah and other prophets also prophesied the birth and the coming of Michael -> Isaiah 7:14-16, and Jeremiah 49:14, and Obadiah 1:1, and Daniel 12:1-3. In fact, the book of Exodus already spake about Michael as a warrior.->Exodus 3:1-6 combined with Acts 7:30-33, and Exodus 23:20-23. Even the Psalms speak about Michael, the warrior:-> Psalms 45:3-5combined with Revelation 6:2,speaking about the union between Christ and His Church,confirmed by Paul Apostle->1Thessalonians 4:16 combined with Daniel 12:1-3, take a look.

• Daniel 10:13, 21: Michael is described as "one of the chief princes" who came to help a messenger angel against the "prince of the kingdom of Persia," showing his power in spiritual warfare.

Yes, the rebuild of the house of GOD, the Temple-->(Ezra 5:12-13 and 6:3-8, combined with Matthew 21:12-13) , yeah, the rebuild lasted 21 years.
MICHAEL went there to help in the rebuilding of the Temple as was commanded by GOD. It is important to understand that the LORD not only commanded the rebuilding of the Temple, but also oversaw its reconstruction throughout the entire period of the work, that is, 21 years. -.(One day is like a year-21 days=21years).

• Daniel 12:1: He is called "the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people," highlighting his role as protector of Israel.
• • Jude 1:9: He disputes with the devil over the body of Moses, demonstrating his authority.

Yes, but we need to meditate deeply this Scriptures. As the current Church of the Lord is His body(Jews and Gentiles), of the same manner Israel was the body of Moses. And as Michael makes now WAR against the great red dragon, the current new name of the old Serpent, also called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:-Revelation 12:9, of the same manner Michael fought against the Devil and protected Israel in the Old Testament, as being ISRAEL the body of Moses-1Corinthians 10:1-13, take a look.

• • NOT God, as he appears as archangel

Yes, God for sure, although be known as archangel and being our fellowservant, understand? Look this example: Exodus 7:1-And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Michael is far superior to Moises, he doesn't even compare.

In this WAR against the red Dragon and his messengers or MINISTERS, ministers of Devil->(2Corinthians 11:13-15 combined with Revelation 12:7, take a look), it is he who appears in the midst of the seven golden clandesticks, the seven Churches of Asia:-> Revelation 1:12-13 and 20:-> 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.-> 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Remember, Michael appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai as God:-> Exodus 3:6(combined with Acts 7:30-33, take a look):->6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. Now Michael is the God of the earth-Revelation 11:4 between two candlesticks, two Churches;->Jewish Church(144K) and Gentile Church-Revelation 7:1-12, take a look.

• • Jesus was THE Angel of the Lord preincanate in OT, Spoke for Yahweh and also as Yahweh Himself

What you wrote above is a devilish tares. JESUS came unto His own, and His own received Him not. Why do people give credit to the satanic Kabbalistic sources (?), Yahweh was introduced in the Hebrew Bible not by the Holy Spirit, but by the Spirit of Devil, the father of he Jews, as said JESUS to the Jews:->John 8:44;-> 44 Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Yahweh is a name of Devil, father of the Jews, the son of perdition. 2Thessalonians 2:3-4:-> 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that Day shall not come(this Day just arrived), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who (will) opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God (will) sitteth in the temple of God (in Jerusalem, the great city, spiritually called Egypt asnd Sodoma->sodomites) shewing himself that he is God. In the Hebrew Bible he appears as god with/by the name of Yeaweh, but there is other satanic nicknames of him which were introducted in the Torah / Hebrew Bible, for example YHWH, a satanic tetragrammaton. -> Revelation 12:9:-> 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.. -> This prophecy will be fulfilled LITERALLY from now on.

Be careful, be prepared or else get ready - Matthew 25:6-10, take a look

 

[JonC]

It was not merely the 18th century that it was "popular", but is found in nearly all the writings of the Reformation (such as Luther, Melanchthon, Hengstenberg, and hundreds of others, &c) against Roman Catholicism, and existed in print since the 1st century throughout unto the present day, beyond what the Bible (OT-NT) says on the subject already since 1550 BCish (when Moses, by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, wrote). Please see the previous responses for futher detail in link format.

Yes. The Reformers were wrong on many issues. Their greatest accomplishment was breaking from the RCC (and the RCC reformed itself shortly afterwards as well).

I am not Reformed (I do not care what they thought of Michael).

I also do not believe it matters if they viewed Michael as Christ ore-incarnate. It really affects no doctrine.

The reason I doubt Michael is pre-incarnate Christ (Christ in "His glory" before the Incarnation) is because Scripture presents Michael and Satan as peers (as the same in kind).

 

[rockytopva]

מֲלְאָךְAngel - Hebrew - mălʼâk, mal-awk'; from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):—ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

Angels to us are mere messengers...

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. - Revelation 22

True- Archangel Michael is an Angel of Jehovah.
False- Archangel Michael is the Angel of Jehovah.

Ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels... - Hebrews 12:22

 

[rockytopva]

Remembering also the scripture... Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, - Colossians 2:18

Especially... "Vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind." And another translation puts it... "They go into detail about what they have seen in visions and have become unjustifiably arrogant by their selfish way of thinking." - Colossians 2:18 (Common English Bible)

 

[GentleGospeller]

Yes. The Reformers were wrong on many issues. Their greatest accomplishment was breaking from the RCC (and the RCC reformed itself shortly afterwards as well).

I am not Reformed (I do not care what they thought of Michael).

I also do not believe it matters if they viewed Michael as Christ ore-incarnate. It really affects no doctrine.

The reason I doubt Michael is pre-incarnate Christ (Christ in "His glory" before the Incarnation) is because Scripture presents Michael and Satan as peers (as the same in kind).

Why focus on the negative, when it was the positive break from Romanism which led them to restudy the issue of Michael, and conclude, from scripture itself that the Son of God is indeed called Michael, and then used that (scripture study) as evidence against Romanism's angel worship, and demotion of Jesus in one aspect of His character to that of creation? In other words, you said "Their greatest accomplishment was breaking from the RCC ...", and one such break was in regards Michael. It is presently modern Baptists that have gone back to certain doctrines of Romanism, and re-accepted that which the Reformation rejected in Romanism. This is due to several factors, such as Jesuit counter-reformation, infiltration, and plain ol' laziness in searching the scriptures, or reading the actual histories.

Secondly, my focus was not entirely upon the Reformers, whether you accept or reject that movement, or its individual persons is not really relevant, since the Reformation was not the beginning of the doctrine itself, nor its end. It was simply one step in history that regained what had been obscured by Romanism in the Dark Ages (AD 400-1400), and I showed that the teaching existed long before them, and continues to exist with many others that continued in it since them, even now.

So, were the Reformers wrong on many issues? Sure, but that is non-sequitur to what they were right in, and have connection with those that were already right in that doctrine long before them, as demonstrated in the historical portion and citations.

You say it does not matter. All truth matters, even if some do not understand why it matters. It does affect "doctrine", which is correct Biblical "teaching". One error held, leads to gathering other errors around it. Then, of course, one person might bring up the ol' tired, "Non-salvation' trope. Please. I pray that is not where this is going, because that is so lame a position to take, it is hardly worth the time to even address it. A person, of course, could go their whole life and never know of this doctrine, and have a loving relationship with Jesus, and be taken back with Jesus to Heaven (soon). That does not mean that the doctrine is not still true, and still present, or even relevant. A person could know nothing of Christianity, or a Bible, and still be delivered by Jesus Christ. Romans is clear about that.

Michael and Satan are in a sense 'peers' (not in nature, nor even real actual position, power, &c). They are simply 'peers' in the sense of that they were both messengers for the Father. They are now enemies, and leaders of their respective armies / followers. That is the entire point of Rev. 12, &c, the Great Controversy, or the War that is mentioned throughout scirtpures. The Bible never presents Michael as the same "kind" (nature) as satan (Lucifer, Heylel), anywhere.

 

[JonC]

Why focus on the negative, when it was the positive break from Romanism ...

Because the negative, rather than the positive, is what makes their doctrine problematic.

If we just focus on the positive then there was no reason for the Reformers to challenge the Roman Catholic Church.

The only problem with holding Michael as pre-incarnate Christ is the Bible treats Michael in the same way (the same type) as Satan.

Examples of Christophanies are instances where the appearance is worshipped (accepts worship), or is identified as God where as Michael is presented as an angel struggling and arguing with Satan.

 

[Brightfame52]

Compare ASV Zechriah 3:1-2, And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of Jehovah, and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary. And Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan; yea, Jehovah that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire. . . .

ASV Jude 1:9, But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

[ John Gill, 'Yet Michael the archangel,.... By whom is meant, not a created angel, but an eternal one, the Lord Jesus Christ; as appears from his name Michael, which signifies, "who is as God": and who is as God, or like unto him, but the Son of God, who is equal with God? and from his character as the archangel, or Prince of angels, for Christ is the head of all principality and power; and from what is elsewhere said of Michael, as that he is the great Prince, and on the side of the people of God, and to have angels under him, and at his command, Da 10:21. . . . .']

I agree with Gill

 

[Ben1445]

Why? If His Name Michael means He is.
like God. Remember John 8:24.
Zachriah 3:2, And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, . . .
Jude 1:9, . . . Yet Michael the archangel, . . . said, The Lord rebuke thee.

After comparison, I fail to find the body of Moses in the context of Zechariah. Since Jude explicitly states that the context is the dispute over the body of Moses, I conclude that although these rebukes of Satan are similar, they are not the same event.
I would be surprised if there were only one event in the events of Satan to which the response should be “the Lord rebuke thee.”

 

[GentleGospeller]

Because the negative, rather than the positive, is what makes their doctrine problematic.

If we just focus on the positive then there was no reason for the Reformers to challenge the Roman Catholic Church.

The only problem with holding Michael as pre-incarnate Christ is the Bible treats Michael in the same way (the same type) as Satan.

Examples of Christophanies are instances where the appearance is worshipped (accepts worship), or is identified as God where as Michael is presented as an angel struggling and arguing with Satan.

I do desire you read the book I wrote, in all. I linked to it before. It addresses your concerns, and misconceptions.

 

[GentleGospeller]

I take my leave.

 

[Ben1445]

I do desire you read the book I wrote, in all. I linked to it before. It addresses your concerns, and misconceptions.

I read the relevant chapter. There are many assumptions made and were backed up with, “there is a time for everything.”
This is not a valid argument because I could say there is an appropriate time to break God’s law because there is a time for everything. Just because the statement is used doesn’t mean it applies.
The one big question that I have, not the only question, just the biggest, since Jesus is the Creator and had the authority to make everything, at what point was the authority removed from Him in order that He not have authority over the devils and Satan.
Another problem with the books perspective is that Jesus did have OT authority and the author (you?) seems to think that Jesus had no authority until the New Testament. The promised New Testament doesn’t show up until the death of Christ.
Jesus said this cup is the New Testament in my blood.
So Jesus, without the authority of the New Testament having been established, commanded Satan to leave, devils to go, and had authority over devils because He is God.
Michael appears to be lacking that authority.
Again, parallels between Zec. 3 and Jude are only parallels and Jude is not referring to Zechariah because Zechariah 3 is not about the body of Moses.

 

[37818]

After comparison, I fail to find the body of Moses in the context of Zechariah. Since Jude explicitly states that the context is the dispute over the body of Moses, I conclude that although these rebukes of Satan are similar, they are not the same event.
I would be surprised if there were only one event in the events of Satan to which the response should be “the Lord rebuke thee.”

The Archangel Michael saying to Satan, “the Lord rebuke thee.”. Occurred first. Later the angel of the LORD is reported saying to Satan, “the LORD rebuke thee.” In the Greek to be regarded to be parallel quotes.

 

[Ben1445]

The Archangel Michael saying to Satan, “the Lord rebuke thee.”. Occurred first. Later the angel of the LORD is reported saying to Satan, “the LORD rebuke thee.” In the Greek to be regarded to be parallel quotes.

Are you saying that Zechariah 3 is a dispute over the body of Moses?

 

[Oseas3]

Michael and Satan are in a sense 'peers' (not in nature, nor even real actual position, power, &c). They are simply 'peers' in the sense of that they were both messengers for the Father. They are now enemies, and leaders of their respective armies / followers. That is the entire point of Rev. 12, &c, the Great Controversy, or the War that is mentioned throughout scirtpures. The Bible never presents Michael as the same "kind" (nature) as satan (Lucifer, Heylel), anywhere.

Your interpretation is very interesting, but if we analyze deeply according Scriptures we will conclude something more wonderful. We must know that Michael is a fellowservant of the believers in Christ JESUS. It was he who revealed the whole context of the book of Revelation to John. Revelation 1:v.1 says: The Revelation of JESUS Christ, which GOD gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel (in fact the archangel) unto His servant John: This wonderful event occurred around 65 years after JESUS ascension or around year 95A.D..

Michael must manifest himself in this current time and before JESUS coming→ 1Thessalonians 4:16→ The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel (Michael), and with the trump of GOD→Revelation 11:15-18, take a look): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (Yeah, there will be RESURRECTION in LITERAL FULFILLMENT of Daniel 12:1-3 combined with Isaiah 26:19-21, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15, take look).

Michael shall work and do here in the earth exactly what was made in Sodom and Gomorra and neighboring cities→Genesis 19:12-30 give us suggestive pictures on Sodoma destruction, take a look; be prepared or else get ready.

Michael must cast down the Devil from this heavenly environment of the New Covenant, New Testament-Ephesians 1:3-10, and so on, to the earth-Revelation 12:9,it is he who shall cast down the Devil into the bottomless pit-Revelation 20:1-4 combined with Revelation 12:7→ 7 And there was WAR in heaven: Michael and his messengers fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his messengers.

Speaking of the WAR of Michael against the demonic NATIONS, Isaiah prophesied,saying: Isaiah 63:3-6:→

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments(Revelation 11:6, take a look), and I will stain all my raiment.

4 For the Day of Vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.


By the way, one of the SEVEN HEADS of the red Dragon, and his main partner, the Beast of sea→Revelation 13:1-10, yeah, one of his 7 heads shall be wounded to death from now on-Revelation 13:3-5, take a look.

I must say that the fullness of the Gentiles has come or just arrived, soon will begin the FIRST HALF of the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:24-27;

Isaiah 34:1-6

34 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

2 For the indignation of the Lord(Romans 2:8-9,take a look) is upon ALL NATIONS (what’s yours?) and his fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be DISSOLVED(yeah, DISSOLVED, 2Peter 3:11-13, take a look), and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. Be prepared or else get ready.​

Why focus on the negative, when it was the positive break from Romanism which led them to restudy the issue of Michael, and conclude, from scripture itself that the Son of God is indeed called Michael, and then used that (scripture study) as evidence against Romanism's angel worship, and demotion of Jesus in one aspect of His character to that of creation?

The true believers know that what matters and prevails is the Word of GOD. It would be impossible to the apostate Romanism "to conclude from Scripture itself that the Son of God is indeed called Michael", it because Scriptures do not say this. In fact, it was a DEMONIC INVENTION inspired not by the Holy Spirit, of course, but by the spirit of Devil, the creator and ruler of the religious MONSTER , idolater and apostate, denominated Roman Catholic Church, which rides upon the Gentilic Beast of Rome, the Beast of sea->(sea=water-peoples, and NATIONS, and multitudes of all tongues) Revelation 13:1-10. Why can we say it like that? Well, the Word of GOD is crystal clear saying: -> Matthew 1:21:-> "The angel of the Lord appeared unto Joseph, saying unto him: -> "Mary thy wife shall bring forth a Son, and thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.

How would they say it like that? To say the Son of GOD is called Michael, it is a demonic tares, and it contradicts the Scriptures. It's no surprise, their head, the own Devil, the MAN of sin, the tree of good and evil, is the father of lies->John 8:44. The apostate church of Rome, the Roman Catholic Church, is the cradle of the Antichrist.-> 1John 2:18-20.

The Antichrist was born and rose up from the own Church-See how

Yes, the birthplace, or the cradle of Antichrist, was the own Church, unfortunately, see how. 1 John 2:v.18-19 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that...

purebibleforum.com

Michael and JESUS are two distincts Persons. JESUS is the Savior, Michael is the Warrior. JESUS is the Word made flesh, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, GOD Father, Invisible GOD, Father of my Lord JESUS Christ, Self-Executable-(John 1:18), Michael is not the Word made flesh, JESUS is, from everlasting to everlasting. Again; JESUS and Michael are two distincts Persons. JESUS is the Saviour, He is the King. Michael is the Warrior, he is a Prince of GOD, he is a lord, and he will cast down the Devil into the bottomless pit from now on-Revelation 20:1-4.

By the way, JESUS is the LORD of the lords.

In other words, you said "Their greatest accomplishment was breaking from the RCC ...", and one such break was in regards Michael. It is presently modern Baptists that have gone back to certain doctrines of Romanism, and re-accepted that which the Reformation rejected in Romanism. This is due to several factors, such as Jesuit counter-reformation, infiltration, and plain ol' laziness in searching the scriptures, or reading the actual histories.

Yes, since ancient times there were strong disputes about biblical content, and continue to this day. Anyway, what matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, right? The Word of GOD says:-> Matthew 15:13-14:-> 13...Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Spiritual condition of the Apostate Church of Rome and its idolatries –> Romans 1:21-25, and so on:

21 Because that, when they knew GOD, they glorified Him not as GOD, neither were thankful; but BECAME VAIN in their imaginations, and their FOOLISH HEART was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible GOD into an image(idols)made like TO CORRUPTIBLE MAN, . . .

24 Wherefore GOD also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of GOD into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, ->(for examples, Mary mother of JESUS, and Apostles, and countless DEFUNCTS BEATIFIED BY THE POPES, like Madre Teresa among hundred other defuncts) , who is blessed for ever. Amen.

REVELATION 21:8-> But the idolaters, and the abominable, and whoremongers, and murderers, and unbelieving, and sorcerers, and fearful, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with FIRE and BRIMSTONE: which is the second death. -> This prophecy will be fulfilled LITERALLY from now on. ->(FIRE AND BRIMSTONE? How is this? Isaiah 30:33 reveals, take a look and examine closely to understand what a torrent of brimstone is).

continues next post below

 

[Oseas3]

continuation of post #36 above:

Secondly, my focus was not entirely upon the Reformers, whether you accept or reject that movement, or its individual persons is not really relevant, since the Reformation was not the beginning of the doctrine itself, nor its end. It was simply one step in history that regained what had been obscured by Romanism in the Dark Ages (AD 400-1400), and I showed that the teaching existed long before them, and continues to exist with many others that continued in it since them, even now.

So, were the Reformers wrong on many issues? Sure, but that is non-sequitur to what they were right in, and have connection with those that were already right in that doctrine long before them, as demonstrated in the historical portion and citations.

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, there's nothing left to discuss, understand:-> Now we must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. That said, now, even now, from now on-> if any man built upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest and the FIRE(GOD IS A DEVOURING FIRE) shall try every man's work, because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the FIRE shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

BE PREPARED OR ELSE GET READY.

You say it does not matter. All truth matters, even if some do not understand why it matters. It does affect "doctrine", which is correct Biblical "teaching". One error held, leads to gathering other errors around it. Then, of course, one person might bring up the ol' tired, "Non-salvation' trope. Please. I pray that is not where this is going, because that is so lame a position to take, it is hardly worth the time to even address it. A person, of course, could go their whole life and never know of this doctrine, and have a loving relationship with Jesus, and be taken back with Jesus to Heaven (soon). That does not mean that the doctrine is not still true, and still present, or even relevant. A person could know nothing of Christianity, or a Bible, and still be delivered by Jesus Christ. Romans is clear about that.

Well, Psalms 42:7 reveals us that "Deep calleth unto deep at the noise of thy waterspouts:" Deep calls to deep to the sound of Your water channels; all Your breakers and waves passed over the peoples.

By the way, the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. But the Spirit of GOD moved upon the face of the waters.->(WATERS=peoples, and NATIONS, and muiltitudes of all tongues-Revelation 17:15).

My Lord JESUS left very very clear, and e doesn’t lie, saying:→Matthew 12:36-37:→

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the Day of Judgment.→(This Day just arrive, the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium).

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Romans 2:5-11

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD