Understanding 2 Thessalonians 2:13

[Silverhair]

I see salvation as unconditional insofar as we don't have to do things to earn it. For example, we are not told that if we read the bible from cover to cover once year, or spend an hour in prayer every day, or give a certain percentage of our income to missionary causes, we will be saved. Belief if a requirement of salvation - that's common sense, as well as biblical, because the idea of desiring salvation, but not believing in the Saviour, just doesn't work.

I do not agree that one only becomes elect when one is in "the Elect One," because the bible says that those who are elect were chosen before the foundation of the earth.

So you understand Eph 1:4 to say you were elect before the foundation of the world. How does that work David?
Were you ever at any point lost?
Why the cross if you were already elect before the cross?

You said " Belief if a requirement of salvation - that's common sense, as well as biblical," but how could you believe before you existed.

Also if you were elect then there are also the non-elect, the non-elect would have been condemned before they even existed. But that sets up a conflict in the word of God.

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Why and to what?

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth
Why desire that all be saved if He has only elected a selected few?

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Since you were already elect and could not be lost then why did Christ have to go to the cross? You were not going to be any more elect than you were B4 creation were you?

And according to scripture your elect are no different from the non-elect.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
So if all sinned then what made you so special that he picked you out to be saved and not others?

 

[Silverhair]

Whoever God wants to be saved it's Christ responsibility to save all of them! Did He send Christ into the world to seek and to save that which was lost?

Yes He did and we were all lost BF Rom 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," or do you think only some were lost?

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Note ALL HAVE SINNED so would you not agree that Christ came to save all?

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes He did and we were all lost BF Rom 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," or do you think only some were lost?

So are you saying He saved all the Father desired to be saved ? As Per 1 Tim 2:4

 

[Brightfame52]

So you understand Eph 1:4 to say you were elect before the foundation of the world. How does that work David?
Were you ever at any point lost?

The elect were never lost in respect to going to hell because of their sins. They were saved from hell always in the eternal mind and purpose of God 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

However because of their sin in Adam they are born lost spiritually dead in sin. Also the elect are at birth saved legally and forgiven of all sin, by the Death of Christ dying as a substitute for their sins. They just now need to be saved from the power of sin, when they are sinners as per Eph 2:1-3, 12

 

[Silverhair]

It's only one option and that's Christ was a failure since as Savior He gives repentance to them He saves Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

That's a rather bold statement BF. You say Christ was a failure because?

He came to save sinners, did He not do that,?

From your quote you seem to think He only came to save Israel.

 

[Silverhair]

So are you saying He saved all the Father desired to be saved ? As Per 1 Tim 2:4

If you would stop cherry picking verses or even parts of verses BF you would not make so many errors.

Read the both verses BF
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

What about those verses do you not understand?

What is the desire of God BF?

 

[Silverhair]

The elect were never lost in respect to going to hell because of their sins. They were saved from hell always in the eternal mind and purpose of God 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

However because of their sin in Adam they are born lost spiritually dead in sin. Also the elect are at birth saved legally and forgiven of all sin, by the Death of Christ dying as a substitute for their sins. They just now need to be saved from the power of sin, when they are sinners as per Eph 2:1-3, 12

Yes God foreknew all those that would freely trust in Him but He did not pick out the ones that would do so.

BF you logic is flawed, if they were spiritually dead then they could not be legally saved.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If you would stop cherry picking verses or even parts of verses BF you would not make so many errors.

Read the both verses BF
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

What about those verses do you not understand?

What is the desire of God BF?

1 Tim. 2:1. 'Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men ....'
So, @Silverhair, do you make supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgiving for all nine billion people in the world today?
If God desired every single person in the world to be saved, they would be. Psalm 115:3. 'But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.'
Paul wants us to pray for all manner of people in the world today, specifically for our leaders (v.2), but also those who curse us and persecute us (Luke 6:28).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I did not see where you suggested the Kingdom of Christ was not entered by being transferred into Christ spiritually.

Acts 16:31. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.' John 6:37. 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.....' The giving of people by the Father to the Son comes first. The coming of those people comes afterwards. Your system has people coming to Christ first, and then the Father weeding them out on the grounds that their faith is not 'righteous' enough.

Were you not "called" [transferred] out of darkness into His marvelous light? 1 Peter 2:9

Were you not "baptized" [transferred] into Christ spiritually? Romans 6:3

I was called by the Spirit and baptized in Him also. I was justified by faith and transferred into the kingdom of Christ.

Are you not "in Christ" by God's doing? 1 Corinthians 1:30

Were you not "given" [transferred] into Christ such that Christ will not cast you out? John 6:37

I was given by the Father to Christ before time began; He saved Me. For John 6:37, see above.

Anyone who claims we were not conceived into the realm of darkness, as "made sinners" and then, if chosen for salvation, transferred out of the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Beloved Son, believes in another gospel!

We are sinners by nature (Eph. 2:1-3). The rest is fine; I wonder why you're not a Calvinist.

Next you say you are not sure why I believe we could not be chosen before faith, when I explain why in the OP.

I explained why your explanation is wrong.

You seem to be asking a series of diversionary questions, all of which have be answered numerous times. For example you say "in Abraham's bosom in heaven" where you know no one entered heaven before Christ returned, John 3:13,

John 3:13 is not about who goes in to heaven. The lord Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus why He is uniquely qualified to speak of heavenly things. He is the One who came down from heaven. No other man has been up to heaven to have a look at heavenly things and come down to tell us all about it. And to this day no one save the Lord Jesus has ascended bodily into heaven (with the possible exceptions of Enoch and Elijah). See Eccl. 12:7). God is not the God of the dead but the God of the living (Mark 12:27). Look at Romans 3:25-26. God justifies the one who has faith in Jesus, both from the Old and New Testaments, and that includes Abraham (John 8:56). They are all one people. The 24 elders before the throne in Rev. 4 & 5 represent the redeemed from both dispensations, twelve being the covenant number. There is no difference between them.

I do not see that you are making any effort to offer a different understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 than I offered in the OP.

Well you haven't looked very hard then. You have no justification whatsoever to add the words 'of the new covenant' to the Bible. Look at vs. 13 and 14. God chose the Thessalonian Christians from the beginning, and He called them by the Gospel which came to them in the 1st Century A.D.

 

[Brightfame52]

That's a rather bold statement BF. You say Christ was a failure because?

The Father wants all to be saved 1 Tim 2:4 He sent Christ to seek and to save the Lost, so will Christ seek and save all the Father wills to be saved ? Yes or no

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes God foreknew all those that would freely trust in Him but He did not pick out the ones that would do so.

BF you logic is flawed, if they were spiritually dead then they could not be legally saved.

The elect were never lost as it regards going to hell for their sins, they have always been saved from that. They were never appointed to wrath

 

[Silverhair]

1 Tim. 2:1. 'Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men ....'
So, @Silverhair, do you make supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgiving for all nine billion people in the world today?
If God desired every single person in the world to be saved, they would be. Psalm 115:3. 'But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.'
Paul wants us to pray for all manner of people in the world today, specifically for our leaders (v.2), but also those who curse us and persecute us (Luke 6:28).

Martin you asked me the same rather dumb question before.

So here is the answer again. I pray that all would come to salvation as the idea that any would spend eternity in hell tears at my soul. Does that not bother you?

Now this may surprise you but God actually desires ALL men to come to repentance so why don't you?

I agree that Paul wants us to pray for all men even those we do not like.

 

[Brightfame52]

Now this may surprise you but God actually desires ALL men to come to repentance so why don't you?

Well Jesus as Saviour gives repentance Acts 5:31

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Thats Christs responsibility, thats why God exalted Him

 

[Silverhair]

The Father wants all to be saved 1 Tim 2:4 He sent Christ to seek and to save the Lost, so will Christ seek and save all the Father wills to be saved ? Yes or no

God desires all to be saved BF do you find that hard to understand?

God does want all to be saved BF but He does not force anyone to come to Him. He has provided the means for man to know Him and also the free will with which to choose to trust in Him for their salvation or to reject Him and be condemned

So your use of "will" in 1Ti 2:4 has lead you to make false assumptions of the means of salvation.

 

[Silverhair]

The elect were never lost as it regards going to hell for their sins, they have always been saved from that. They were never appointed to wrath

Not what the bible shows us BF.

 

[Silverhair]

Well Jesus as Saviour gives repentance Acts 5:31

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Thats Christs responsibility, thats why God exalted Him

And your point being?

 

[Brightfame52]

God desires all to be saved BF do you find that hard to understand?

Its Christs responsibility to save them all, what u dont understand about that?

 

[Brightfame52]

Not what the bible shows us BF.

Yes it does, it doesnt teach you

 

[Brightfame52]

And your point being?

Thats Christ saving responsibility to give repentance. Why did God exalt Him according to Acts 5:31

 

[Silverhair]

Its Christs responsibility to save them all, what u dont understand about that?

So are you saying all the lost will be saved BF?