As Paul Harvey said:

[Guvnuh]

Not what I meant, but you know that.

 

[canadyjd]

Not what I meant, but you know that.

Well, no. I don’t know that you didn’t mean what you said.

That’s way too many double negatives to keep up with.

The woman was protesting. Agree with her stance or not (I don’t) she has the right to protest. She was not blocking the street completely, as several cars went around her. Regardless, traffic offenses are local police issues.

The ICE agents are not “peace officers”. They are immigration enforcement officers. Had the agent been a police officer attempting to detain her for traffic violations… then it’s justified.

For the shooting to be lawful, the agent must be engaged in his duties as an immigration officer. What was he doing? The woman wasn’t an illegal immigrant. The officers weren’t not in “hot pursuit” of illegal immigrants. They were traveling through the city and being harassed by protestors.

He was taking cell phone video of the woman and her wife. The driver was calm and not making threats. Her wife was taunting the agent

When the woman backed up and attempted to go around him, he pulled his weapon (cell phone still in hand) and shot her as she came forward. I suspect she panicked when she saw the gun pointed at her. She did hit him with drivers front of the vehicle but I can’t tell is that was before or after he fired his weapon.

As many have already said, I hope all the facts are revealed, nothing is hidden. If he’s prosecuted, or not, I sincerely hope it’s fir legal reasons and not political reasons.

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

Well, no. I don’t know that you didn’t mean what you said.

That’s way too many double negatives to keep up with.

The woman was protesting. Agree with her stance or not (I don’t) she has the right to protest. She was not blocking the street completely, as several cars went around her. Regardless, traffic offenses are local police issues.

The ICE agents are not “peace officers”. They are immigration enforcement officers. Had the agent been a police officer attempting to detain her for traffic violations… then it’s justified.

For the shooting to be lawful, the agent must be engaged in his duties as an immigration officer. What was he doing? The woman wasn’t an illegal immigrant. The officers weren’t not in “hot pursuit” of illegal immigrants. They were traveling through the city and being harassed by protestors.

He was taking cell phone video of the woman and her wife. The driver was calm and not making threats. Her wife was taunting the agent

When the woman backed up and attempted to go around him, he pulled his weapon (cell phone still in hand) and shot her as she came forward. I suspect she panicked when she saw the gun pointed at her. She did hit him with drivers front of the vehicle but I can’t tell is that was before or after he fired his weapon.

As many have already said, I hope all the facts are revealed, nothing is hidden. If he’s prosecuted, or not, I sincerely hope it’s fir legal reasons and not political reasons.

Peace to you

No offense, but you're speculating in some of this like everyone else. For example, how do you know that the woman was not making any threats? How do you know she panicked? How do you know she didn't deliberately hit him? I wouldn't say yea or nay yet on any of those, personally.

 

[Salty]

I just want to hear all three sides of the issue

 

[canadyjd]

No offense, but you're speculating in some of this like everyone else. For example, how do you know that the woman was not making any threats? How do you know she panicked? How do you know she didn't deliberately hit him? I wouldn't say yea or nay yet on any of those, personally.

The ICE agent took video of her behind the wheel of the car. She was smiling and not making threats at all. I guarantee if she had made threats, they would have pointed it out when they released the video. They certainly pointed out her wife taunting him.

I am speculating about her panicking, and said so when I said it.

She wasn’t attempting to hit him because when he was standing directly in front of the vehicle, She backed up first, turn the wheels to miss him before pulling forward. If she were intentionally attempting to hit him, she wouldnt have backed up first.

he drew his weapon, (I know I would panic if someone drew a weapon on me) and shot her, never putting the cell phone down.

This is tragic. There is a lot of speculation because not all the information is being released.

The government lawyers understand for this to be a justified shooting, he must have been engaged in his official duties as a federal immigration enforcement officer.

I cannot understand how him walking around her vehicle with a cell phone can be considered part of his official, immigration enforcement duties.

Peace to you

 

[Ben1445]

The ICE agent took video of her behind the wheel of the car. She was smiling and not making threats at all. I guarantee if she had made threats, they would have pointed it out when they released the video. They certainly pointed out her wife taunting him.

I’m supposed to believe that the driver was just a happy go lucky human being and her smile was so rare that the agent decided to take a video because she was so nice.
Get real. That’s not what was going on. Her behavior most definitely changed for the camera when it came out.

I am speculating about her panicking, and said so when I said it.

She wasn’t attempting to hit him because when he was standing directly in front of the vehicle, She backed up first, turn the wheels to miss him before pulling forward. If she were intentionally attempting to hit him, she wouldnt have backed up first.

he drew his weapon, (I know I would panic if someone drew a weapon on me) and shot her, never putting the cell phone down.

On the subject of putting down the phone, I don’t know if holding it through the incident was presence of mind or not. He was hit by a car. You are upset that he didn’t take the time to put it in his pocket? Time to throw it? I would actually say that if he is using it for collecting evidence, which would be the purpose of the video, it would be foolish for him to drop it where the car would smash it.
This really is an irrelevant point that you keep bringing up.

This is tragic. There is a lot of speculation because not all the information is being released.

The government lawyers understand for this to be a justified shooting, he must have been engaged in his official duties as a federal immigration enforcement officer.

I cannot understand how him walking around her vehicle with a cell phone can be considered part of his official, immigration enforcement duties.

If she has intentionally interrupted the investigation he is involved in and is obstructing ice operations she has put herself into his investigation.

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

The ICE agent took video of her behind the wheel of the car. She was smiling and not making threats at all. I guarantee if she had made threats, they would have pointed it out when they released the video. They certainly pointed out her wife taunting him.

I believe it's possible to make threats and smile.

I am speculating about her panicking, and said so when I said it.

She wasn’t attempting to hit him because when he was standing directly in front of the vehicle, She backed up first, turn the wheels to miss him before pulling forward. If she were intentionally attempting to hit him, she wouldnt have backed up first.

It's easy to accidentally get into reverse. I did it myself the other day.

he drew his weapon, (I know I would panic if someone drew a weapon on me) and shot her, never putting the cell phone down.

Yet his cell phone shows that he was hit. I'd say it's possible for him to panic too. Only he had a gun. If one is protesting some police force or other, one should remember that they carry guns. Just sayin'.

This is tragic. There is a lot of speculation because not all the information is being released.

Absolutely correct.

The government lawyers understand for this to be a justified shooting, he must have been engaged in his official duties as a federal immigration enforcement officer.

This thinking leaves out the legal right to self defense that every citizen has.

I cannot understand how him walking around her vehicle with a cell phone can be considered part of his official, immigration enforcement duties.

Peace to you

Neither can I, but then I'm not law enforcement. I don't know what orders he had from his superiors, and neither do you. And nowadays anyways, everyone chronicles everything with their cell phones. It's safe when one enters an altercation to have video. Surely you agree that any citizen has the right to record events, even if there is no official mandate.

 

[John of Japan]

There are those who would classify the incident under "Darwin Awards."

"Let's see. I have a car, a deadly weapon, and he has a gun, a deadly weapon. Let's see who wins."

 

[canadyjd]

I’m supposed to believe that the driver was just a happy go lucky human being and her smile was so rare that the agent decided to take a video because she was so nice.

I only know what she did on the video. She was not making threats. She was smiling and was calm. As I have been accused of speculating, I think you are as well.

Get real. That’s not what was going on. Her behavior most definitely changed for the camera when it came out.

Speculation until proven otherwise

……

If she has intentionally interrupted the investigation he is involved in and is obstructing ice operations she has put herself into his investigation.

And there is the big “if”. My understanding, these folks were following and harassing the agents as they drove from place to place.

They can attempt to make the case that being “in route” to a place where they were going to investigate someone is the same as actively interfering with a possible arrest.

They can also make the case they had the authority, as federal agents, to document protestors with their cell phones and apprehend those violating local traffic laws that obstructed their travel.

The courts will be spending a lot of time figuring this out.

Should he be indicted, and I won’t be surprised if he is, this case will set precedent in several areas concerning the scope of federal authority, qualified immunity and use of deadly force.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

There are those who would classify the incident under "Darwin Awards."

"Let's see. I have a car, a deadly weapon, and he has a gun, a deadly weapon. Let's see who wins."

Yeah, I know there are those that will make jokes about this woman’s death.

I can’t find the humor in it, but that’s me.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

….
This thinking leaves out the legal right to self defense that every citizen has.

No, it does not. If you want to consider him as a private citizen, then it’s murder plain and simple. He approached her car. He was the aggressor. He had the gun, she had no weapon. He was blocking her path, with a gun. The aggressor can never claim self defense…..

….It's safe when one enters an altercation to have video. Surely you agree that any citizen has the right to record events, even if there is no official mandate.

There is. But, as a federal agent, was it part of his official duties to exit his vehicle and take video of protestors? Was he engaged in an “altercation” prior to the shooting. He didn’t give the woman any orders to get out of her vehicle. That came from another agent. What authority did he have to tell the woman to get out of her vehicle.

Peace to you

 

[Ben1445]

No, it does not. If you want to consider him as a private citizen, then it’s murder plain and simple. He approached her car. He was the aggressor. He had the gun, she had no weapon. He was blocking her path, with a gun. The aggressor can never claim self defense…..

There is. But, as a federal agent, was it part of his official duties to exit his vehicle and take video of protestors? Was he engaged in an “altercation” prior to the shooting. He didn’t give the woman any orders to get out of her vehicle. That came from another agent. What authority did he have to tell the woman to get out of her vehicle.

Peace to you

He didn’t tell her to get out of the vehicle. That was a different agent.

 

[canadyjd]

He didn’t tell her to get out of the vehicle. That was a different agent.

Apologies, I wasn’t very clear. I was referring to the other agent ordering her out of the vehicle.

Which begs the question, since the agent that did the shooting was already on scene and wasn’t attempting to get her out of the vehicle but rather simply taking video, why did the 2nd agent escalate and demand she get out of the vehicle?

Had the second agent not interfered with this peaceful interaction by escalating and demanding she get out of the vehicle, the shooting likely would never have occurred.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

I do understand this is very emotional and I’m taking a minority view.

I want to thank everyone for responding in a civil manner.

We should all be able to discuss these events in a logical, calm way.

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

No, it does not. If you want to consider him as a private citizen, then it’s murder plain and simple. He approached her car. He was the aggressor. He had the gun, she had no weapon. He was blocking her path, with a gun. The aggressor can never claim self defense…..

That's not what the law says, according to the video by a lawyer in a previous post on this thread. And she had a deadly weapon, her car. When used aggressively to cause injury or harm it is a deadly weapon.

There is. But, as a federal agent, was it part of his official duties to exit his vehicle and take video of protestors? Was he engaged in an “altercation” prior to the shooting. He didn’t give the woman any orders to get out of her vehicle. That came from another agent. What authority did he have to tell the woman to get out of her vehicle.

Peace to you

So are you saying that a federal agent should not be allowed to do anything but exactly his duties? Wow.

 

[canadyjd]

That's not what the law says, according to the video by a lawyer in a previous post on this thread. And she had a deadly weapon, her car. When used aggressively to cause injury or harm it is a deadly weapon.

I disagree with the lawyer in the previous post and stated why.

First, he failed to differentiate between the authority of local peace officers and federal immigration agents. They are very different.

Second, when discussing self defense, he made no mention of which party is the aggressor. If the agent is acting outside his s pipe of authority as it appears he was, then he was the aggressor and cannot claim self defense.

Third, he failed to consider the obvious fact she was attempting to drive around him by backing up and turning her wheels. That goes to motivation. She wasn’t intentionally attempting to hit him.

So are you saying that a federal agent should not be allowed to do anything but exactly his duties? Wow.

Absolutely!!! I am saying a federal immigration agent is limited, by law, in their area of authority and rightly so.

I have seen video of agents approaching people and demanding proof of US citizenship without any reasonable suspicious they are in the country illegally.

They shouldn’t be able to just demand papers from people. It cannot be a “hunch”. It cannot be “they look Hispanic or Somoli”, they have to have some reasonable suspicion that leads them to believe they are illegal.

Peace to you

 

[777]

Be careful of those ICE youtube videos, some of the are AI generated, fake. Speaking of which, google AI claims it is okay for the use of cell phones:

Federal immigration enforcement officers (like ICE and CBP) use cell phones for official duties, including surveillance, locating individuals, and border enforcement, using specialized tools like Stingrays, while having broad authority to search travelers' devices at the border under border search exception for contraband or inadmissibility, though users have limited rights to refuse without consequences. Officers also have policies for limited personal use of agency-issued phones,

and then it's in their code:

https://www.ice.gov/doclib/foia/policy/4004.1_UseICE_IssuedMobileDevices.pdf

so I don't see the big deal here either, and where is the loud-mouthed wife's cell phone footage? I've seen several of videos of this, I really can't tell what's going on and who was where when. But one shot was right through Renee's front windshield, he had to have been right in front of her at the time. Just guessing, I think her idiot partner was telling her to drive and she just did it reflexively, not even considering that that ICE officer was in front of her.

I don't blame ICE or Renee for it, her wife more so but if there hadn't been a thing such as a "sanctuary city", this would have never happened. She WAS obstructing traffic, the only reason she wouldn't block off all the lanes was that she was in an SUV. The local police should have made her move, but that mayor and Tampon Tom told them to stand down. Now ICE isn't cooperating with them, so they can't go after ICE like they want to. Ought to either stop these ICE protest altogether (Insurrection Act) or remove ICE from every sanctuary state/city, since that's what they want and why should ICE help some community that doesn't want the help?

 

[canadyjd]

You make valid points throughout, @777, Well stated.

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

I disagree with the lawyer in the previous post and stated why.

First, he failed to differentiate between the authority of local peace officers and federal immigration agents. They are very different.

Second, when discussing self defense, he made no mention of which party is the aggressor. If the agent is acting outside his s pipe of authority as it appears he was, then he was the aggressor and cannot claim self defense.

I don't know what a "pipe of authority" is.

Regardless, he did reference Missouri laws, which you have not. So at this point I'm trusting him, unless you are a lawyer (but you don't appear to be).

Third, he failed to consider the obvious fact she was attempting to drive around him by backing up and turning her wheels. That goes to motivation. She wasn’t intentionally attempting to hit him.

But the fact remains that she was careless with a deadly weapon, as cars are legally considered to be. If Joe Blow is handling a gun, and it accidentally goes off and shoots someone, he is in deep legal trouble even if he didn't mean to shoot the person. Same with a car. The minute you hit someone, you are liable even if you didn't mean to.

Absolutely!!! I am saying a federal immigration agent is limited, by law, in their area of authority and rightly so.

I have seen video of agents approaching people and demanding proof of US citizenship without any reasonable suspicious they are in the country illegally.

I don't see a problem with that. Many of those being arrested by ICE are felons.

They shouldn’t be able to just demand papers from people. It cannot be a “hunch”. It cannot be “they look Hispanic or Somoli”, they have to have some reasonable suspicion that leads them to believe they are illegal.

Peace to you

This is all pretty general without telling us what laws the ICE agents are making. In most places, police (including ICE I'm sure) are able to ask for ID. When it has been me, I have always cooperated willingly with police and immigration authorities in various countries. (Well, maybe except that time in Africa when a roadside military checkpoint with their AK-47s stopped us. Fortunately the missionary handled it all, but I was nervous.)

One last statement about the videos. Police departments all over the US are mandating cameras both in the patrol car looking forward, and on the uniforms of the police officers. I consider this an excellent development. If the ICE agent is guilty of murder, his video should show it. If he is innocent, his video should show it.

 

[John of Japan]

Be careful of those ICE youtube videos, some of the are AI generated, fake. Speaking of which, google AI claims it is okay for the use of cell phones:



and then it's in their code:

https://www.ice.gov/doclib/foia/policy/4004.1_UseICE_IssuedMobileDevices.pdf

so I don't see the big deal here either, and where is the loud-mouthed wife's cell phone footage? I've seen several of videos of this, I really can't tell what's going on and who was where when. But one shot was right through Renee's front windshield, he had to have been right in front of her at the time. Just guessing, I think her idiot partner was telling her to drive and she just did it reflexively, not even considering that that ICE officer was in front of her.

I don't blame ICE or Renee for it, her wife more so but if there hadn't been a thing such as a "sanctuary city", this would have never happened. She WAS obstructing traffic, the only reason she wouldn't block off all the lanes was that she was in an SUV. The local police should have made her move, but that mayor and Tampon Tom told them to stand down. Now ICE isn't cooperating with them, so they can't go after ICE like they want to. Ought to either stop these ICE protest altogether (Insurrection Act) or remove ICE from every sanctuary state/city, since that's what they want and why should ICE help some community that doesn't want the help?

Excellent post! Thank you.