No. When a Jew or a Gentile is born again and placed into the body of Christ, then there is no difference between that Jew and that Gentile. They are new creations in Christ. It does not matter if Abraham was their father according to the flesh. What matters is they are Abraham‘s children according to faith. They are not new creations in Israel. Israel’s promises are earthly. The church, the body of Christ, has its promises heavenly. Christians have no part in Israel, which is pretty much a pagan nation itself today. At the least, it is pagan regarding the Lord Jesus. They are Abraham‘s children, according to the flesh, but not according to the spirit, and that will change during the millennium, and that is when all Israel will be saved. All the church is saved right now.
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The sheep and the goats?
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Here is the claim, we are siblings of Christ, thus having an Israelite brother, are not part of the same family. See Hebrews 2:11 folks, we have the same Father, and we are children of the promise, Galatians 3:28-29.
Note this poster's claim, "Christians have no part in the promises made to Abraham" as if none of the OT saints are spiritually "in Christ" today. Talk about racism making God's word to no effect!
Scripture tells us that at Christ's second coming, He will separate the sheep and the goats. So the question is when do the sheep and goats get separated for those who physically die BEFORE His second coming. When we physically die and are unsaved, we go to Hades, but when we physically die as a born anew child of God we go to be with the Lord in heaven.
I believe only those taken to Hades are then taken before the Great White Throne. So the sheep are separated into goats or "My sheep" at death, or at the second coming. Thus the separation may have already occurred before the events described in Revelation 20:11:15.
Yes, the saved sheep are also judged to determine the extend of their rewards, but all of them were saved forever, but some enter heaven as if escaping from a fire, bringing little or no rewards.
I have a question and I hope you do not get upset by it because I think it is a sensible question and should be answered.
Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Why are those terms that are highlighted supposed as metaphors while those terms, sheep and goats, which are obviously metaphors, considered as literal. That seems to me to be a backward application.
Greetins Van. I was reading over some of what you wrote and thought I'd make some comments.
I'm not sure which people you refer to that think the division "will be based on works". But for me, the general concept of the divisions in Matthew 25 are something similar to Romans 1:19-24 and Romans 2:11-16.
So you aren't guessing about what I mean, these are the key words in Romans 1 and Romans 2 that make the verses relevant for Matthew 25:31-46, imo.
Romans 1:
(1:18) "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven"
(1:19) "what may be known of God is manifest in them"... "God has shown it to them".
(1:20) "although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God"
Romans 2:
(2:11) "as many as sinned without the law will also perish without law"
(2:14) "by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves"
(2:15) "show the work of the law written in their hearts"
(2:15) "their conscience also bearing witness"
(2:16) "God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to the gospel"
The Matthew 25 parable seems to me to follow the above mentioned verses in a particular way. That is, the examples given in Matthew seem to be examples of 'experiential situations that seem to guarantee internal realizations that then are expected to manifest in outward actions'.
(1) Experiential situations
(2) Internal realizations
(3) Outward actions
In the case of of Romans 1, the experiential situation is creation itself, the internal realization is knowing there is a God, and the accused were expected to "Glorify God", "give thanks" to God.
In Romans 2, it appears to suggest that experiential situations manifest an internal realization of a 'natural law', that then an outward action is expected (or condemns).
So when we look now at Matthew, it seems to me, we find the same thing. The text gives (1) Experiential situations, that it seems implied that there should be (2) internal realizations, that in turn some (3) outward actions are expected (someone might suggest these outward actions are like fruits).
Since the Matthew text seems to equate the outward action to doing it to Jesus. It would seem to follow that the missing component that may be implied is "knowing Jesus" or "believing" in Jesus... Matthew 25:12, "I do not know you". You did not know you were doing it to Jesus because you did not know Jesus. If you had known Him, then you would have known that you were doing it to, or against, Him.
I don't intend to suggest or forward whether this "knowing Jesus" is by election or faith (or both). Only that in the parable, those that acted like they didn't know they were doing what they did to Jesus, didn't know Jesus.
Peace to you brother.
Again, Revelation 20:11 is non-germane to the question of when are the sheep and goats separated.
1) I am upset by your implication I "supposed" anything about (a)Son of Man, (b) throne of His glory, (c) nations, (d) King and (e) Kingdom. I see your supposition as a diversionary ploy.
2) The Greek noun, "ethnos" G1484 in the "nominative plural neuter" form is used in one of its literal senses in Matthew 25:32, which is "a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus." Here the two nations or groups of the same nature and genus, are those born anew and those not born anew, the children of God and the children of wrath.
Mark 12:37
David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
I do not see the common people hearing all this as common language. The text does not say anything about these two nation groups being those who are born again and those who are not. It does say the difference between the sheep nations and the goat nations is determined on how they treated the brethren of the son of Man, who are those of Israel during the period of time the Olivet Discourse is concerned with.
I am asking you to consider this as making sense of the text.
1) I did not suppose or imply any particular poster thought the division of sheep and goats was based on works.
2) I agree with your description of the human condition, we experience something, we internalize it, making some sense of it, whether we are aligned with reality or not, and then we put our internalized "truth" into action or inaction, depending on our assessment.
3) In Romans 1:18-21, we see people who "suppress the truth" they know something of God's invisible attributes, but did not honor Him or give thanks to Him.
4) The "wrath of God" is revealed by the adverse consequences of unnatural behavior such as worshiping creation rather than the creator.
5) In the Romans 2:12-16, God teaches the lost who have the Law of Moses, will be judged by that Law, and those who have not the Law of Moses, have a "law" dictated by their conscious, and they will be judged by that "law." For example, if you say it is fine for you to steal from others, but not fine for others to steal from you, the "law" of your conscience will convict you, until too seared. But God will judge you for what you knew and subsequently for what you should have known.
6) There is no mystery or difficulty in the concept of "knowing Jesus;" only those transferred into Christ "know Him." But the gospel allows the lost to know of Jesus and either embrace Him fully or partially, or reject Him. God's word, scripture, leads the lost to Christ.
The text does not refer to "the common people."
Yes the text does identify the two groups, those that go to the right inherit the kingdom prepared for them "from or since the foundation of the world. Those that go to the left go into the eternal fire. That Sir describes the two "nations."
There is no need to make the simple and obvious into a complex mystery. The individuals who treated others as they would want to be treated reflected God's love for mankind, those did not sacrifice of themselves to care for others did not reflect God's love for mankind. Final obvious point, the actions described are the actions of an individual or a few individuals, giving someone a drink, visiting, clothing. We are only talking about two groups, individuals with the love of God in them, and those who have not the love of God.
I think maybe the disconnect is the meaning of the kingdom of heaven. Some people do not see this terminology as describing a kingdom but they see it as describing heaven itself. This is actually the kingdom as described by the prophets, on earth over which heavenly principles are the source of the rule with Jesus Christ the King being present to rule the world for God in righteousness. There is a thousand year rule and rebels are identified just before Jesus begins his kingdom rule and are forbidden to enter in. Remember, Jesus said, except a man is born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. This passage in Mt 25 is in the transition period between the Satanic reign over the earth and the reign of Jesus Christ over the earth from Jerusalem.
Ps115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
Jesus Christ is identified as the son of Man in this Discourse.
Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
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1) Why not stay on topic. We are not discussing that you think the kingdom of heaven refers to the millennial kingdom on earth.
2) The fact humans must be born anew to enter the kingdom of God (not heaven). is not in dispute. See John 3:5
3) The issue is that I believe "nations" in Matthew 25:32 refers to believers and non-believers, and you believe the reference is to various groups of differing earthly governments. I presented the basis for my view, based on word meaning and context.
I am on topic. Matthew 25 is the passage in the scriptures where nations are described by the metaphor of sheep and goats where sheep nations are defined by the treatment of the brethren and nation of Israel during the time of great Tribulation. There is no precedent for your application of this metaphor that I can think of anywhere else in scripture. If one is using metaphors then those metaphors must be a picture of something literal or something commonly known. In this case it is nations. Nations are judged according to their leadership because the rulers determine the type of government. It did for Israel and they crucified their King and thus lost their kingdom for over 2000 years, only to be raised from the dead so God can keep his covenant promises to them concerning nationhood.
37818
Well-Known Member
The Kingdom of heaven means the kingdom of God.
Matthew 19:14, But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:14, But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Matthew 19:14, But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:14, But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Yes, parallel verses in Mark and Luke have kingdom of God where Matthew has kingdom of heaven. So at least some of the time the phrases are used interchangeable. You will note that those who suggest the phrases sometimes mean different things are short on examples.
The kingdom of God has two parts, an outward and an inward. Matthew was the gospel writer who dealt with the outward and visible kingdom, announcing it is at hand. The king is in the midst and was near to establishing his earthly visible kingdom through his chosen people, Israel. However, the outward physical kingdom that men can see cannot take place until the inward kingdom that no one can see is established and that is inside each individual the citizen of that kingdom.
This had already been proven over 1500 years of Israel's history since Moses led the nation out of Egypt at it's birth. They were given the law of God but could not keep it. It only condemned them and revealed their inability. When Jesus came they were subjugated by the nations of the world. Jesus Christ was the only Jew who could keep the law of God perfectly, and he did. His ability stemmed from the fact that he had the perfect righteousness of God in his physical body from his birth, the Spirit, who was his power to resist sin. Here is what the Bible says of him;
.Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
This is the Holy Spirit of God
There is no power in the flesh for the perfect holiness that God demands
This is spoken of John the Baptist:
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Here is a quote of John the Baptist as he witnessed concerning the light.
Jn 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
So here are synonyms in scripture.
1) The Spirit of Christ
2) Righteousness of Christ
3) Eternal life
4) The gift of God
5) The Light
A sinner must understand his condition before God and embrace his promise by faith before he can become a citizen of the future visible kingdom of heaven. It is not possible for this order to be reversed because of the nature of the flesh. This is the reason God is establishing his kingdom from heaven at the end of the Bible, in Re 20, rather than the beginning in Ge 4. Sin had to be dealt with first and sinners must be in the kingdom of God before he can go into the visible kingdom at it's inauguration. All others will have been killed in the great tribulation or will be killed before it begins.
LK 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
......
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
In this parable, this judgement and slaughter of enemies is before the execution of the visible kingdom when personal righteousness is a requirement to enter it.
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No, Matthew 25 is not a passage where groups governed separately, are described by the metaphor of sheep and goats.
Nations in Matthew 25:32 refers to where a group of people, comprised of believers and unbelievers are gathered before Christ. They are then separated into those differing groups, two multitudes of people, with each separated group being of the same nature and genus.