SOME WILL FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH

[Oseas3]

Matthew 25: 29-30 and 6-12
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 Cast ye the unprofitable SERVANT into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



6 And at midnight(at turn from the sixth to the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium, something like Genesis 3:8-11, take a look) there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. (The lamp is the Word of GOD, understand? Psalms 119:105)

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. ->
(The time now, even now, and from now on, is not to sell or to buy oil or, by analogy, even to preach the Gospel of GOD's Kingdom, or to do evangelization, Oh no, be sure that this will be a waste of time from now on, because now the time is of the righteous Judgment of GOD. The true believers will judge the demonic World of the Devil as a whole->(Daniel 7: 22 and 26-27 combined with 1Corinthians 6:2-3 and Revelation 11:15-18, understand?

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; ->(Beware, look at God's clock.), and they that were ready went in with Him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But He answered (will answer) and said(will say), Verily I say unto you, I know you not. ->(Beware->1John 2:28)

Therefore, those who are buying or selling oil instead of going to meet the Lord during the preaching of the righteous Judgment of GOD against this demonic world (Revelation 11:15-18), in both cases these SERVANTS will lose their souls forever (Matthew 25:26-30, take a look). This prophecy of the Lord will be fulfilled LITERALLY from now on. It is a warning. (Revelation 16:13-15, especially 15, keep it in mind.)

Revelation 22:11-12
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.->(Revelation 11:16-18,take a look)

Celebration of the Lamb's marriage? ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF BABYLON

According to GOD's Word, what needs to happen first? Exactly what is written in Revelation 18: 1 to 5, i.e. the Judgment of the Great Whore, as follows: 1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. (Note: This...

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[Oseas3]

Be sure that what was done in Sodom and Gomorrah, and neighbouring cities, Michael will do now, even now, and from now on, in the world as whole, under the command of the Lord. There will be WAR against three UNCLEAN SPIRITS like frogs:->Revelation 16:13-15, and keep in mind mainly verse 15.

Genesis 19:12-17
12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.
14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.

15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

16 And while Lot lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.

 

[Oseas3]

Micah 4

4 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.

5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

6 In that day, saith the Lord, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the Lord shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.

12 But they know not the thoughts of the Lord, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.

13 Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the Lord, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.

Celebration of the Lamb's marriage? ONLY AFTER THE JUDGMENT OF BABYLON

According to GOD's Word, what needs to happen first? Exactly what is written in Revelation 18: 1 to 5, i.e. the Judgment of the Great Whore, as follows: 1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. (Note: This...

purebibleforum.com

 

[37818]

Your logic is flawed 37.

Those that have trusted in Him have their names in the book of life so those verses do not support your contention that all names would have to be removed.

Once their names are in the book God will not blot them out but that person can remove their name if they later repudiate the faith they had. That is what we are told by the Holy Spirit in 1Ti 4:1

"The Ephesian church had been warned already about the coming of false doctrines (Act_20:29-30). Throughout Paul’s letters, the Spirit speaks “in stated words” (expressly) that the church will see apostasy, a falling away from the true faith (see 2Th_2:1-17). The word “depart” in the Gk. gives us our English word “apostasy.” He points out too the cause for the apostasy — not the “growing intelligence of scholars” but the satanic influence of demons so that professed believers deny the basic doctrines of the Bible." WIERSBE’S EXPOSITORY OUTLINES

@Silverhair,
Of course you think my view is flawed. I don't think you understand it.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair,
Of course you think my view is flawed. I don't think you understand it.

I understand what you have said, I just do not agree with it.

You have ignored the reality that people do actually turn away from the faith they once had.

 

[Van]

Where does the righteousness imputed to man come from? There is only one place?

Maybe you know of another righteousness?

Again, you seem to be making no effort to have an actual discussion. You know the issue is the claim we are made to be the righteousness of God by imputation, a demonic lie. See 2 Corinthians 5:21.

 

[Paleouss]

VAN what you saying is that some will fall away from a false faith and turn to the real faith.

But that is not what the bible teaches. You cannot fall away from a faith that you did not have.

1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith,

Are you saying that God does not know what is going to happen?

Greetings Silverhair. Grace and Love in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I would like to start by saying I haven't read much of what others are saying to you, and only some of your comments. So you might treat this post to you as a standalone that doesn't know the points that have been made previously.

I'm drawn to your conversation based on what appears to be your contention that salvation can be lost (like maybe John Wesley). I have seen some of the verses you have presented, and although I find them to have a lack of convincing evidence, I find the logic you use to be something I would like to explore.

I often like to use the parable of the sower as a testing ground for topics like these. Probably because it provides a picture story to just the type of dilemma we have here. So I would like to hear your objective perspective (I'm asking for objectiveness) regarding the topic of falling from faith, or apostasy, or losing salvation as it may relate to the parable of the sower.

Soil #1: by the wayside
Soil #2: stony places
Soil #3: amount the thorns
Soil #4: good ground

Soils #2 and #3 are of particular interest to our conversation, I think.

Soil #2 is said to "immediately receives it with joy" (Matt 13:20) and is said to "endures only for a while". In Luke it says of soil #2, "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13). So Luke tells us that soil #2 actually "believes" but then falls away. When tribulation comes "immediately he stumbles" (v21). To me this sounds like a person that has been told the gospel, believes (because Luke says this soil "believes"), maybe even came to church for a short time, but then 'falls away' from his joy in the faith. One looking from the outside in, like us, we might say this person once believed and turned from the faith.

Now I assume that Soil #3 is a progressive, more developed, version of soil #2. It is said to "hear the word" (Matt 13:22), we assume "believes" since #3 is an example of a plant that grows longer than the soil #2 plant. And when the plant of soil #3 grows to fruit bearing age, "it becomes unfruitful" (Mark 4:19). This person, that is soil, would seem to be 'in the faith' much longer than soil #2 for it progresses to the point in which one might expect fruit. This person may be in the church or even may still be in the church despite it being "sown among thorns" and becoming "unfruitful".

It seems to me that this 'falling from the faith' in which we speak is none other than soil #2 and soil #3 but is not in any way soil #1 or soil #4. The question becomes, for me anyway, were soils #2 and #3 ever actually "saved", "reborn", had become a "new creation"? They clearly could be examples, I think, of people "falling from faith" in the practical observational sense. For they heard the word, received its with joy, believed, and then fell away in some way for form. But had they become a new creation in Christ?

As a related caveat. We have a story in Matthew 7:21-23 in which there are those that say "Lord, Lord" (are presumably not demonstrating a "falling from faith" (per say)... and Jesus says to them "I never knew you" (Matt 7:23). Are these soils #2 and #3 examples of those that Jesus says "I never knew you"?

Thoughts?

Peace to you brother

 

[Van]

The Greek verb translated "imputes" is in the 3rd Person singular.
λογιζεται.

The issue is not that God credited OT Saints with His gracious gift of righteousness, it is the assertion that this refers to being made the righteousness of God in Christ. Abraham's faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. This did not make Abraham the righteousness of God.

That is why Abraham, and all the other OT Saints were consigned to "Abraham's bosom" rather than taken directly to the kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Charlie24]

Again, you seem to be making no effort to have an actual discussion. You know the issue is the claim we are made to be the righteousness of God by imputation, a demonic lie. See 2 Corinthians 5:21.

You're misunderstanding 2 Cor. 5:21, Van.

Christ was made to be sin for us so that by grace through faith in Him it makes it possible for the righteousness of God to be imputed into us at conversion.

Paul is giving us in this verse the means in which obtaining the righteousness of God is given. It's through faith in the finished work of Christ, His becoming sin for us. Otherwise righteousness in the sight of God would be impossible for us.

 

[Van]

You're misunderstanding 2 Cor. 5:21, Van.

Christ was made to be sin for us so that by grace through faith in Him it makes it possible for the righteousness of God to be imputed into us at conversion.

Paul is giving us in this verse the means in which obtaining the righteousness of God is given. It's through faith in the finished work of Christ, His becoming sin for us. Otherwise righteousness in the sight of God would be impossible for us.

You just made that up. It says point blank we become the righteousness of God in Him. End of discussion.

 

[Charlie24]

You just made that up. It says point blank we become the righteousness of God in Him. End of discussion.

I may not be understanding your problem with imputed righteousness. Here's how I understand it.

At the moment of conversion we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ. We are not perfect, that will not happen until body, soul and spirit of man is rejoined at the resurrection.

The righteousness that is imputed is the nature of God, His characteristics, but if you don't realize the sin nature is still in man you will be confused on this conflict of natures that continuously takes place in us.

Walking in the Spirit is a total surrender to the guiding of the Holy Spirit, but much easier said than done. This is being led in the righteousness of Christ.

If we begin walking in the flesh, letting the flesh guide us, as we so often do, the sin nature will rise up in us and take control. It's a constant battle to walk in the Spirit, as Paul has so often pointed this out to us.

So if I'm on track with your problem of imputed righteousness, hopefully this is a beginning to explaining why we disagree.

 

[Silverhair]

Soil #2 is said to "immediately receives it with joy" (Matt 13:20) and is said to "endures only for a while". In Luke it says of soil #2, "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13). So Luke tells us that soil #2 actually "believes" but then falls away. When tribulation comes "immediately he stumbles" (v21). To me this sounds like a person that has been told the gospel, believes (because Luke says this soil "believes"), maybe even came to church for a short time, but then 'falls away' from his joy in the faith. One looking from the outside in, like us, we might say this person once believed and turned from the faith.

I think we can find this type of belief in many of those that have come forward at crusades or grown up in a "Christian" home. They have an emotional faith an intelectual faith. Note it lasts for a season but that season can be a long or short time.
They have not developed a deep trust in God. They have what I call a head faith not a heart faith. They know about God but do not know God.
They could come to church every week or just twice a year
When trouble comes and it will they do not have the depth of root to withstand the winds.

Now I assume that Soil #3 is a progressive, more developed, version of soil #2. It is said to "hear the word" (Matt 13:22), we assume "believes" since #3 is an example of a plant that grows longer than the soil #2 plant. And when the plant of soil #3 grows to fruit bearing age, "it becomes unfruitful" (Mark 4:19). This person, that is soil, would seem to be 'in the faith' much longer than soil #2 for it progresses to the point in which one might expect fruit. This person may be in the church or even may still be in the church despite it being "sown among thorns" and becoming "unfruitful".

Now we see someone that has actually come to know God as we see that they had been fruitful. For some they came to question things about God and His goodness. I would include in this group those that just stop trusting in Jesus. I have known two ministers, both had been preaching for a number of years, who just lost faith in Christ and the word of God. Nothing dramatic just a slow ebb of trust until it just wasn’t there anymore. For others it was just getting ahead, life. But whatever it was it came to rule their lives, it pushed God out.
These people had heart faith, they trully believed and trusted God and His word until they didn't.

It seems to me that this 'falling from the faith' in which we speak is none other than soil #2 and soil #3 but is not in any way soil #1 or soil #4. The question becomes, for me anyway, were soils #2 and #3 ever actually "saved", "reborn", had become a "new creation"? They clearly could be examples, I think, of people "falling from faith" in the practical observational sense. For they heard the word, received its with joy, believed, and then fell away in some way for form. But had they become a new creation in Christ?

Did those of soil 2 and soil 3 really believe, were they saved? I think those of the soil #2 if you asked them would say they believed and were saved. They do not exhibit what many would say are the proofs of salvation but we are not the judge of that are we. I would say they fell away from trusting the God they knew about.

Now soil #3 as I under stand it were saved. They knew God and trusted in HIm. They bore friut. They were trully in Christ.
Take for example Charles Templeton a close friend and fellow evangelist who preached alongside Billy Graham but later renounced his Christian faith and became an agnostic.

As a related caveat. We have a story in Matthew 7:21-23 in which there are those that say "Lord, Lord" (are presumably not demonstrating a "falling from faith" (per say)... and Jesus says to them "I never knew you" (Matt 7:23). Are these soils #2 and #3 examples of those that Jesus says "I never knew you"?

Did Christ know either soil 2 are soil 3? Now with soil 2 I would say questionable. Would Christ accept just a head knowledge, perhaps.

With soil 3 we can have no doubt that Christ knew them. Would He feel the lose when they turned away, yes but He would also honour their choice.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings to you brother, Silverhair. Grace and Hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I think we can find this type of belief in many of those that have come forward at crusades or grown up in a "Christian" home. They have an emotional faith an intelectual faith. Note it lasts for a season but that season can be a long or short time.
They have not developed a deep trust in God. They have what I call a head faith not a heart faith. They know about God but do not know God.
They could come to church every week or just twice a year
When trouble comes and it will they do not have the depth of root to withstand the winds.

Regarding soil #2, we in large part seem to agree. The fact that Matthew depicts soil #2 as "endures only for a while" (Matt 13:20) seems to correlate with your description, above.

You later wrote about soil #2...

I think those of the soil #2 if you asked them would say they believed and were saved.

I agree, I think so as well. You also wrote about soil #2...

They do not exhibit what many would say are the proofs of salvation but we are not the judge of that are we. I would say they fell away from trusting the God they knew about.

Sounds reasonable and most likely, probable.

You then said about soil #3...

Now we see someone that has actually come to know God as we see that they had been fruitful.

This is what I think needs a little deeper inquiry. You have stated that soil #3 has been "fruitful". I'm not sure this is the case in the text, but it is a key component on whether soil #3 is actually saved or not. Some facts about the notion that soil #3 was "fruitful" (in the biblical sense, meaning a product of the Spirit of God at work in conjunction with the active faith of the believer).

1. The parable doesn't actually say soil #3 is fruitful.
2. The parable does say, "becomes unfruitful". (which may suggest going from fruitful to unfruitful...or...suggests never being fruitful, i.e., the seed grows and 'becomes' unfruitful).
3. The parable does actually give a soil that is fruitful, i.e., soil #4. Matt 13:23 actually says "who indeed bears fruit and produces".

So what we have is a soil, #3, that "becomes unfruitful" and a soil, #4, that "indeed bears fruit and produces". At first blush, what I think is a more natural reading of the parable, it seems as if the phrase "indeed bears fruit and produces" signifies that all other soils prior to it in the story did not actually bear fruit and produce. The v23 then goes on to give differing degrees in which fruit was produced, "some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty".

Here is other text from Mark 4:19-20..."and it becomes unfruitful. 20 "But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept [it], and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred." Again, the construction of the sentence seems to indicate that soil #4 actually bears fruit and soil #3 never becomes fruitful.

This topic reminds me of two other parables I think might be relevant. One being the Parable of the growing seed, Mark 4:26-29 which says, "For the earth yields crops by itself: first the blade, then the head, after that the full grain in the head. 29 "But when the grain ripens, immediately he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come."

Could we mix parables stories and say that soil #2 is "first the blade, then the head" and soil #3 "the full grain in the head" but only soil #4 is "when the grain ripens, immediately he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come." If so, then this "ripens" is when the believer is actually saved...when he is "harvested".

Taking this back to the Lord, Lord verse...

Did Christ know either soil 2 are soil 3? Now with soil 2 I would say questionable. Would Christ accept just a head knowledge, perhaps.

With soil 3 we can have no doubt that Christ knew them. Would He feel the lose when they turned away, yes but He would also honor their choice.

It seems to me that we are given an example in the Lord, Lord verse that shows us a person that has in fact done the "things of God" a majority of their life. They are in the church, praying, evangelizing, visible. Yet, Jesus says that he will say "I never knew you". With your explanation, it would appear that the sower parable has no comparable example. For in your example, soil #3 was born again, a new creation, the old self had died to Christ...Yet, in the Lord, Lord example these people are clearly never known, never harvested, never really a new creation.

My conclusion is that the sower parable does in fact have a soil to represent the Lord, Lord verses. That a person can in fact 'fall from the faith' but have never actually been reaped. Many Calvinist would probably like this conclusion but would cringe at the notion that soil #2 and #3 are receiving some glimpses of God's grace but then fall away.

Thanks for the conversation and generating some thought.

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure

 

[Oseas3]

1. The parable doesn't actually say soil #3 is fruitful.
2. The parable does say, "becomes unfruitful". (which may suggest going from fruitful to unfruitful...or...suggests never being fruitful, i.e., the seed grows and 'becomes' unfruitful).
3. The parable does actually give a soil that is fruitful, i.e., soil #4. Matt 13:23 actually says "who indeed bears fruit and produces".

So what we have is a soil, #3, that "becomes unfruitful" and a soil, #4, that "indeed bears fruit and produces". At first blush, what I think is a more natural reading of the parable, it seems as if the phrase "indeed bears fruit and produces" signifies that all other soils prior to it in the story did not actually bear fruit and produce. The v23 then goes on to give differing degrees in which fruit was produced, "some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty".

What does the Bible say about diligence?

Matthew 24:42-50

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.^
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. -> ( But be sure He is arriving in the time and space. He's getting very close, He's near, very close. Be prepared, or else get ready).


45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over His household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his Lord when He cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That He shall make him ruler over all His goods.->(Revelation 2:26-29, as follow:

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the END->(Matthew 24:13 and 12&14), to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall RULE THEM with a Rod of Iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.->(Revelation 11:15-18)

28 And I will give him the morning star.

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.)

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Revelation 22:12-14
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the City. Alleluuiaaaa!!!

Revelation 21:2-7
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from GOD out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of GOD is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and GOD Himself shall be with them, and be their GOD.


4 And GOD shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. -> (The first and second heavenly places in Christ , the Old and New Testaments finished, are extinct->Hebrews 8:13, both heavenly places now are shut->(Matthew 25:6-10 combined with Revelation 11:6) the third heavenly place in Christ, the third heaven is established-2Corinthians 12:2-4 from now on, with WAR.-> Revelation 16:13-15, mainly verse 15. -> Be prepared or else get ready)

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things NEW. - ALLELUIA!!! - And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his GOD, and he shall be my son.

AMEN.

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive Glory and Honour and Power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.-> Revelation 4:11

 

[Van]

I may not be understanding your problem with imputed righteousness. Here's how I understand it.

At the moment of conversion we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ. We are not perfect, that will not happen until body, soul and spirit of man is rejoined at the resurrection.

The righteousness that is imputed is the nature of God, His characteristics, but if you don't realize the sin nature is still in man you will be confused on this conflict of natures that continuously takes place in us.

Walking in the Spirit is a total surrender to the guiding of the Holy Spirit, but much easier said than done. This is being led in the righteousness of Christ.

If we begin walking in the flesh, letting the flesh guide us, as we so often do, the sin nature will rise up in us and take control. It's a constant battle to walk in the Spirit, as Paul has so often pointed this out to us.

So if I'm on track with your problem of imputed righteousness, hopefully this is a beginning to explaining why we disagree.

Thanks for actually presenting an explicit viewpoint.

1) The moment of conversion occurs AFTER God transfers the individual into Christ's spiritual body, and occurs WHEN the individual undergoes the washing of regeneration, which results in the person being born anew, now alive (rather than spiritually dead) together with Christ.

2) We ARE spiritually perfect after we have been born anew in Christ.

3) No "nature" is imputed. That is fiction. Abraham's faith was imputed as righteousness, not his nature. His spirit had not yet been made perfect, that is why he had to wait in Abraham's bosom until after Christ died.

4) The fact that after we are born anew, our "old man" is still with us and we need to abandon 'self" and embrace God is not in dispute.

5) We disagree because you want to deny 2 Corinthians 5:21. You seem to deny that we are NOT automatically saved when we choose to trust in Christ. The step of God crediting or not, our faith seems missing from your gospel.

 

[Charlie24]

Thanks for actually presenting an explicit viewpoint.

1) The moment of conversion occurs AFTER God transfers the individual into Christ's spiritual body, and occurs WHEN the individual undergoes the washing of regeneration, which results in the person being born anew, now alive (rather than spiritually dead) together with Christ.

2) We ARE spiritually perfect after we have been born anew in Christ.

3) No "nature" is imputed. That is fiction. Abraham's faith was imputed as righteousness, not his nature. His spirit had not yet been made perfect, that is why he had to wait in Abraham's bosom until after Christ died.

4) The fact that after we are born anew, our "old man" is still with us and we need to abandon 'self" and embrace God is not in dispute.

5) We disagree because you want to deny 2 Corinthians 5:21. You seem to deny that we are NOT automatically saved when we choose to trust in Christ. The step of God crediting or not, our faith seems missing from your gospel.

#2 is our problem and it deals with the problem of sin AFTER salvation.

Paul deals with the remedy to this problem, you are ignoring it, seems to me.

 

[Charlie24]

#2 is our problem and it deals with the problem of sin AFTER salvation.

Paul deals with the remedy to this problem, you are ignoring it, seems to me.

There is a point man can reach with God and notice there is no known sin in their life. It's called by some "the center of God's will."

I didn't say perfection as in ceasing to sin, that is not possible in this mortal life.

I said no repeating of sin in one's life. That's what we should all be striving for in our sanctification.

I will say I am not one of those people.

 

[Silverhair]

1. The parable doesn't actually say soil #3 is fruitful.
2. The parable does say, "becomes unfruitful". (which may suggest going from fruitful to unfruitful...or...suggests never being fruitful, i.e., the seed grows and 'becomes' unfruitful).

Logically if one were to become unfruitful, which is what we see in the Greek text, then they at one point had to have been fruitful. We see this same thing in John 15:4-6 those that remain in Christ will bear fruit those that depart will not. Note the words "The one who remains in Me, and I in him," vs 5 and "If anyone does not remain in Me" vs 6 If one was at one time in Christ they were saved.
This is also born out in Hebrews 6:5-6 they were indeed saved but later turned away from the faith they had.

It seems to me that we are given an example in the Lord, Lord verse that shows us a person that has in fact done the "things of God" a majority of their life. They are in the church, praying, evangelizing, visible. Yet, Jesus says that he will say "I never knew you". With your explanation, it would appear that the sower parable has no comparable example. For in your example, soil #3 was born again, a new creation, the old self had died to Christ...Yet, in the Lord, Lord example these people are clearly never known, never harvested, never really a new creation.

Here I have to disagree with you. We see from Matthew 7:21 that Christ is comparing those that believe with those that have not believed. That would be those who have heard the gospel message and even agreed with it but have not really trusted in God but opperate within the Church system as if they do believe.

My conclusion is that the sower parable does in fact have a soil to represent the Lord, Lord verses. That a person can in fact 'fall from the faith' but have never actually been reaped. Many Calvinist would probably like this conclusion but would cringe at the notion that soil #2 and #3 are receiving some glimpses of God's grace but then fall away.

Here I have to disagree with you conclusion as I find it does not fit the text found in the soils parables.
We see one soil that did not believe but the other three did show that they did believe. Some just up to the point out trouble or over whelming cares.

And as I have pointed out we see where Jesus made it clear that some can and do actually turn away from their faith and are subsequently lost. John 15:2-6


Your thoughts

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings

Logically if one were to become unfruitful, which is what we see in the Greek text, then they at one point had to have been fruitful. We see this same thing in John 15:4-6 those that remain in Christ will bear fruit those that depart will not. Note the words "The one who remains in Me, and I in him," vs 5 and "If anyone does not remain in Me" vs 6 If one was at one time in Christ they were saved.
This is also born out in Hebrews 6:5-6 they were indeed saved but later turned away from the faith they had.

I am going to try and incorporate the Sower Parable into the John 15 4-6 verses to keep us in that frame. It will probably turn from the traditional. To me, if we relate the two verses then the "seed" is the equivalent of the "vine". One is the word of life, the other the vine of life. Both are the giving and sustaining of life. Jesus Christ is the source of our life, He is the way, the truth, and the LIFE.

In the parable of the sower, everyone, every soil, no matter its condition...receives the seed. Every soil except one, we see life emerge and a sprout/plant grows. We both seem to agree that soil #2 was never saved, yet, it is said of soil #2 that it "receive the word with joy" and "believed". In other words, there was some light and life within this soil if only for a little bit. This light and life can be sourced, imo, by none other than The Word, the Son of God himself. Jesus is the light to the world, the light and life of these seeds.

John 15:4-6 basically says that the Son of God is the life, He is the vine. No branch can have light or life without the vine. No one. However, the sower parable suggests that even soil #2 (the not saved) receives some light and life (but for a short time). My approach is to usually reconcile verses, not pick a side and forget the other. So....I do recognize that John 15 states, "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw [them] into the fire, and they are burned". This clearly seems to suggest that this "branch" was once connected to the vine but no longer "abides" in the vine...and then is "cast out".

But in the parable of the sower, soil #2 was not saved but showed some signs of light and life (if only for a short time). This makes me wonder if when the "seed" is sown, the vine of Christ provides light and life. He who "abides" will progress eventually to fruitfulness. Those that do not abide, we might agree on soil #2, don't progress to fruitfulness and are "cast out" from the vine, i.e., the light and life.

I do notice that John 15:4-6 doesn't actually say the branch was saved, nor does it say that the branch actually ever bore fruit. It says if you "abide" or "remain" in the vine...then the branch will bare fruit. It seems reasonable to say that soil #2, seeing growth and life, was for a short time attached to the vine (when the seed sprouted) but did not "remain" to then become fruitful and saved. So it was cut out and will be cast into the fire.

All this analysis would seem to allow apply to soil #3. In other words, I'm not convinced that John 15 clears up the soil #3 dilemma on whether soil #3 was ever saved or not, or was actually ever fruitful or not.

I ran out of time, I'll try to look at the rest of your post tomorrow. Sorry.

Peace to you brother

 

[Ascetic X]

Rather than debate hypotheticals, let us simplify: how salvation happens and how we KNOW for sure we are saved. Salvation is a new birth. I do not see how that new birth could be aborted. Instead of worrying about losing our salvation, let us focus on loving God and neighbor.

Trust and obey! If we do not obey, we can worry that maybe our repentance and conversion were not authentic.

Solution = read the New Testament and try really hard to obey all commandments, not in order to earn salvation by works, but to assure ourselves we are saved.

Eternity is forever, we cannot afford to make an inescapable mistake in this matter!


Romans 10:9,10

that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 10:27, 28

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 14:21

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 John 3:18 - 23

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.