Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
How shall they be made righteous according to Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
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Thoughts on Justification
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
- Start date
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Why not ? Hasnt Christ b4 they believed, satisfied for their sins ? God isnt well pleased with them for Christs sake ?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Okay
So they werent Justified by Christs blood b4 they believed ? Rom 5:9
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
YES.
Scripture is quite clear, those receiving Him, those coming to the light, God has already wrought within them. Ye MUST be born from above.
Those believing on Him already have eternal life:
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36
.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24
... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47
Belief on Christ is the biggest indicator one can have that one has been born of God.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
So why arent the elect legally Justified at the point of Christs death ? Wasnt the legal transaction between the Father and the Son on their behalf ?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Agreed, but you seem to deny they are Justified b4 God by Grace and the obedience of Christ b4 Faith.
Scripture is clear they were Justified by Grace through redemption by Christ b4 they were born Rom 3:24
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
okay agreed, but its wrong to discount the elects Justification by Grace, and by the active and passive obedience of Christ b4 they believe with God given Faith. Thats what Faith is given for so that the elect will come into a spiritual understanding of their Justification by Christ and Grace.
Was it an unrighteous man that Jehovah called out of Mesopotamia years earlier, appeared to several times, and announced blessings upon, BEFORE Genesis 15:6?
Was it an unregenerate man that built an altar to Jehovah at Shechem years earlier, BEFORE Genesis 15:6?
Was it to a dead alien sinner that Melchizedek pronounced 'Blessed be Abram of God Most High' years earlier, BEFORE Genesis 15:6?
Abraham didn't become righteous at Genesis 15:6, he was PRONOUNCED to be righteous.
The answer is still not because we believe. The answer is God's grace and mercy, and the active and passive obedience of Christ. Perhaps you have not read John 3:16 recently. First, God loves the world in a certain way; the result of that is that He gives His only begotten Son to suffer and die; the purpose of that being so that believing sinners should have eternal life.
Amen! But both those things are the gift of God, and they necessitate the suffering and death of the Lord Jesus.
Amen again. And your point is..../
Only if I was wearing your Arminian spectacles, which would enable me to pass by Romans 9:15 and a crowd of other verses.
If all that is needed is for us to believe in Christ, then there was no need for Him to die. He could have appeared, done His teaching and pushed off back to heaven. You are turning faith into a work that we need to accomplish for salvation. Your missing out the first part of 2 Cor. 5:21 tells me that you do not fully understand the love of God which led Him to send the Lord Jesus.
Your answer lies in Romans 9:15. God actually loves people enough to save them. What mercy is it to put people through a sort of faith test to see who passes?
Are you special in some way that you were smart enough to pass the faith test? Stop being so silly and offensive. You invariably bring out the worst in me. I know I am saved because Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. My warrant to enter heaven is not that I am clever enough to believe, but because I am a sinner and the Lord saves such.'Looking back on my past life, I can see the dawning of it all was God; of God effectively. I took no torch with which to light the sun, but the sun enlightened me. I did not commence my spiritual life, I rather kicked and struggled against the things of the Spirit: when He drew me, for time I did not run after Him: there was a natural hatred in my soul of everything holy and good. Wooings were lost on me - warnings were cast to the wind - thunders were despised; and as for the whispers of His love, they were rejected as being less than nothing and vanity. But sure I am, I can say now, speaking on behalf of myself, "He only is my salvation." It was He who turned my heart, and brought me down upon my knees before Him. I can in very deed, say with Dodderidge and Toplady:
Grace taught my soul to pray,
And made my eyes o'erflow;
And coming to this moment I can add -
'Tis grace has kept me to this day,
And will not let me go. [C.H. Spurgeon; from his autobiography, Vol. 1]
...is a corruption of the gospel.
I challenge you (once again) to produce one, just one, itsy bitsy teeney weeney Bible passage that says Justification is by faith alone.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2
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No. Otherwise it gives the lie to Romans 5:1. We must hold to the whole of Scripture and not cherry-pick the verses we like best, or we shall be as bad as @Silverhair.
See my posts #9 and #14.
Nice dodge. Already read them, nothing substantial or new from you.
I challenge you (once again) to produce one, just one, itsy bitsy teeney weeney Bible passage that says Justification is by faith alone.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2
Romans Catholics did not write these passages, James, the Lord's brother and an apostle, penned those words.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2
Roman Catholics misunderstand them, just the same as you do.
There are several verses in my previous posts that answer your points, such as they are. So read them again, and then quote them, explaining why you don't like them. Otherwise, shut up and leave me alone.
YOU'RE the ignorant one here, ensconced in an erroneous dogma.
Tell me, from the context, what 'works' are James specifically referring to?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
By God's grace through faith according to the whole word of God.
At one time I thought you errored because you used out of context verses to support your flawed views but now it seems you only use parts of verses and really ignore context in the attempt to support your flawed views.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Gen 15:6 And Abram believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Brenton
Gen 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness. BSB
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness NKJV
Gen 15:6 Abram believedN20 the LORD, and the LORDN21 considered his response of faithN22 as proof of genuine loyalty.N23 NET
Gen 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. NASB
Gen 15:6 And he believed in Jehovah, and he credited it to him as righteousness. UASV
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD; and the LORD reckoned it to him as righteousness. NRSV
Gen 15:6 And Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD counted him as righteous because of his faith. NLT
Abraham was not righteous, none of us are truly righteous. We all sin. But God accounted his faith for righteousness just as He does ours.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I always thought the writings of James were showing that faith can be evaluated by whether it results in actual deeds. The idea that faith does so is indeed found in the Reformed system in that Owen is the one quoted as saying we are saved by faith alone but by a faith that is never alone. I have the quote somewhere. The Roman Catholics and Wesley and the Reformers say faith does work through love and they all have different explanations of how this works. The R.C.'s I think actually add specific works and performances set up as sacraments. Baxter does say that works are in some way part of justification but also explains that in such a way that for instance a man may get married, be fully married at the time of the ceremony, yet is still required to fulfill the duties of marriage to remain married. If you have ever read his "Aphorisms on Justification", it really makes a lot of sense. He later admitted it went too far, and Owen refuted Baxter but gave him more grace that we give each other on this board.
The Reformers in refuting the Catholics on "faith alone" to my knowledge, always used the argument that this doctrine actually encouraged and resulted in holy living and good works and love to each other (more so than the Catholic system) - never was the argument used that this doctrine was teaching that it minimizes the importance of good works, only that it puts them in proper theological perspective.
There has always been a hypersensitivity on the part of the Reformed regarding this. How could there not be when the Catholic church officially put a curse on anyone who believes in "faith alone". Even Jonathan Edwards, and more recently, John Piper have gotten in trouble over faith and it's relationship to works and the resultant meaning of justification.
The Reformers in refuting the Catholics on "faith alone" to my knowledge, always used the argument that this doctrine actually encouraged and resulted in holy living and good works and love to each other (more so than the Catholic system) - never was the argument used that this doctrine was teaching that it minimizes the importance of good works, only that it puts them in proper theological perspective.
There has always been a hypersensitivity on the part of the Reformed regarding this. How could there not be when the Catholic church officially put a curse on anyone who believes in "faith alone". Even Jonathan Edwards, and more recently, John Piper have gotten in trouble over faith and it's relationship to works and the resultant meaning of justification.