Thoughts on Justification

[kyredneck]

Gen 15:6 And Abram believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Brenton

Gen 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness. BSB

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness NKJV

Gen 15:6 Abram believedN20 the LORD, and the LORDN21 considered his response of faithN22 as proof of genuine loyalty.N23 NET

Gen 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. NASB

Gen 15:6 And he believed in Jehovah, and he credited it to him as righteousness. UASV

Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD; and the LORD reckoned it to him as righteousness. NRSV

Gen 15:6 And Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD counted him as righteous because of his faith. NLT

Abraham was not righteous, none of us are truly righteous. We all sin. But God accounted his faith for righteousness just as He does ours.

So, was it an unrighteous man that Jehovah called out of Mesopotamia years earlier, appeared to several times, and announced blessings upon, BEFORE Genesis 15:6?

Was it an unregenerate man that built an altar to Jehovah at Shechem years earlier, BEFORE Genesis 15:6?

Was it to a dead alien sinner that Melchizedek pronounced 'Blessed be Abram of God Most High' years earlier, BEFORE Genesis 15:6?

[add]

IOW, was Abraham 'hell bound' BEFORE Genesis 15:6?

 

[Brightfame52]

No. Otherwise it gives the lie to Romans 5:1

I believe thats a serious denial

 

[Brightfame52]

We must hold to the whole of Scripture and not cherry-pick the verses we like best, or we shall be as bad as @Silverhair.

You just did it. I affirm Justification by faith, but I also affirm Justification by the blood of Christ which is the object of Faith. You deny Justification by the blood of Christ. So its you violating the whole of scripture

 

[Brightfame52]

By God's grace through faith according to the whole word of God.

Thats not what Rom 5:19 says, So try it again

 

[37818]

Romans 5:1-2, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 5:19, For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Silverhair]

The answer is still not because we believe. The answer is God's grace and mercy, and the active and passive obedience of Christ. Perhaps you have not read John 3:16 recently. First, God loves the world in a certain way; the result of that is that He gives His only begotten Son to suffer and die; the purpose of that being so that believing sinners should have eternal life

Yes we are saved by the grace of God but only those that believe in Him will be saved. You even prove that by the verse you quoted:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

That is the condition that God has placed on our salvation.

Amen! But both those things are the gift of God, and they necessitate the suffering and death of the Lord Jesus.

If faith is the gift of God then please explain from your calvinist view why all are not saved as He desires all to be saved. Is God not able to accomplish what he desires?

Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

Amen again. And your point is..../

According to your calvinist view Paul was wrong on both counts. He should have told the man he could do nothing as God had to give him faith after he was saved. So we either believe the false view of your calvinism or we believe the word of God.

I will stick with the word of God you can have your false religion.

Only if I was wearing your Arminian spectacles, which would enable me to pass by Romans 9:15 and a crowd of other verses.

No need to pass over Rom 9:15. God has mercy on those He chooses and scripture shows that He has chosen to have mercy and compassion on those that believe.

But since the verses I referenced are about ones trusting in God for their salvation I am curious as to why you would use Rom 9:15 which is about God's choice re the genealogical line through which the Messiah will come.

If all that is needed is for us to believe in Christ, then there was no need for Him to die. He could have appeared, done His teaching and pushed off back to heaven. You are turning faith into a work that we need to accomplish for salvation. Your missing out the first part of 2 Cor. 5:21 tells me that you do not fully understand the love of God which led Him to send the Lord Jesus.

Well the bible tells us why Christ had to die. He had to be the sacrificial lamb to take away the sins of the world. 1Jn 2:2
And I am really curious why you calvinists keep saying faith is a work when the word of God says it is not and it is actually a requirement of ones salvation.
Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

We can know why God sent His son, it is right there in scripture:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

So we see that 2Co 5:21 just confirms what John 3:16-17 has already told us.

Your answer lies in Romans 9:15. God actually loves people enough to save them. What mercy is it to put people through a sort of faith test to see who passes?

So by your logic because God loves the whole world then the whole world should be saved. That is the result of your no faith required view.

Because of God's mercy He has not cast us all into hell already but has actually provided the means for us to escape that future.
That is why He sent His son so that the world could be saved through Him so how do you keep missing the condition that God set for our salvation. It is right there in the text.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Are you special in some way that you were smart enough to pass the faith test? Stop being so silly and offensive. You invariably bring out the worst in me. I know I am saved because Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. My warrant to enter heaven is not that I am clever enough to believe, but because I am a sinner and the Lord saves such.

Calvinist's keep using the same canard as if it really is not reality.

Of course I was smart enough to trust the word of God and believe in Christ Jesus for my salvation. Do you actually think that was a dumb choice?

Your calvinism says you must have won the salvation lottery. How else do you account for you being the lucky ones to be picked out? Were you less sinful?
Even your faith had to be given to to you so that would indicate that you must not be smart enough to hear the gospel message and be able to understand that trusting in Christ Jesus was the only means of salvation.

So it was dumb luck that you were picked out from all those other sinners.

So I have to ask why did Christ have to go to the cross, why is faith in the risen Christ even necessary for you calvinists. According to your religion you were all picked out before the foundation of the world so was there ever the possibility that you would be lost?

Calvinism distorts the word of God in such a way that it becomes unrecognizable.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You just did it. I affirm Justification by faith, but I also affirm Justification by the blood of Christ which is the object of Faith. You deny Justification by the blood of Christ. So its you violating the whole of scripture

Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. I cannot see how anyone can be justified by faith if he is justified before he believes. That is my problem with justification from eternity. I most certainly believe in justification by the blood of Christ, and I think you will find it in my O.P.

 

[Silverhair]

So, was it an unrighteous man that Jehovah called out of Mesopotamia years earlier, appeared to several times, and announced blessings upon, BEFORE Genesis 15:6?

Was it an unregenerate man that built an altar to Jehovah at Shechem years earlier, BEFORE Genesis 15:6?

Was it to a dead alien sinner that Melchizedek pronounced 'Blessed be Abram of God Most High' years earlier, BEFORE Genesis 15:6?

[add]

IOW, was Abraham 'hell bound' BEFORE Genesis 15:6?

Had Abraham trusted in God prior to God accounting His faith as righteousness? Yes he had.

Was he hell bound? Well since we are saved by God through our faith and Abraham had exhibited faith in God then I would say he was not hell bound. What do you think KY?

 

[Silverhair]

Thats not what Rom 5:19 says, So try it again

You mean it is not what you think it says BF.

I believe the whole word of God. You should try it sometime.

Your cherry picking out of context verses or even worse parts of verses is the reason you have such a distorted view of the word of God.

 

[kyredneck]

I cannot see how anyone can be justified by faith if he is justified before he believes.

<sigh>

 

[kyredneck]

Had Abraham trusted in God prior to God accounting His faith as righteousness? Yes he had.

Was he hell bound? Well since we are saved by God through our faith and Abraham had exhibited faith in God then I would say he was not hell bound. What do you think KY?

Abraham was born of God long before Genesis 15:6. ALL of God's saints are born from above BEFORE conversion.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@Silverhair,
Please post your stuff Cal/Arm section, so that I can ignore it.

 

[Van]

I am currently on holiday, and have been doing a bit of study. I am interested to know what folk here think about Justification.
So firstly, how does justification differ from forgiveness?

Secondly, in the Book of Romans, Paul tells us that we are justified by three things:
1. We are justified by grace. Rom. 3:24.
2. We are justified by faith. Rom. 5:1.
3. We are justified by the blood of Christ. Rom. 5:9.

How would one reconcile these three statements?

Sorry for the delayed response to the OP. This post does not address any of the following pages of replies.

1) What is the difference between "forgiveness" by God, and "justification" by God?

First we need to focus upon a particular kind of "forgiveness;" that provided by the application of the blood of the Lamb, resulting in the washing of regeneration, also called the circumcision of Christ. On one hand, God can withhold punishment for sinful behavior, and on the other hand, God can justify the behavior with the payment of the blood of the Lamb. Under the Old Covenant, people were granted "forgiveness" but were NOT justified by the blood of the Lamb. When a person is "pardoned" they do not pay the penalty for their malfeasance, but when a person is "justified" the penalty has been paid in full.

2a) "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, (Romans 3:24) Here we have been "justified" because of God's gracious gift by means of being transferred into Christ and undergoing the washing of regeneration.

2b) Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (Romans 5:1). Here we have been "justified" on the basis of faith, and the result is we are in harmony with God, no longer separated as a consequence of sin. When and if God credits our faith in the name of Christ, He transfers us into Christ where we are washed with the blood of the Lamb, resulting in our justification.

2c) Much more then, having now been justified in His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. (Romans 5:9). Here we have been justified by the washing of regeneration in His blood, and the result is we will be saved from the consequence of any sinful act we may do, because once "in Him" we are ransomed from sin, past, present and future.

 

[Brightfame52]

Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes.

What do you mean ? I teach Justification by the blood of Christ Rom 5:9; by the grace of God Rom 3:24; by Faith Rom 5:1 because the scripture presents them, You deny Justification by the blood

I cannot see how anyone can be justified by faith if he is justified before he believes.

Can you see how someone can be Justified by the blood or grace of Christ b4 they believe ? I guess not

That is my problem with justification from eternity.

I believe that too. But this contention is about Justification by the blood of Christ, a clear revelation is given to you Rom 5:9

9 Much more then

I most certainly believe in justification by the blood of Christ,

Thats what you say, but I dont believe it since you deny one is Justified b4 God on the basis of Christs blood b4 faith, Im just keeping it real with you
, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[Brightfame52]

I believe the whole word of God. You should try it sometime.

This is part of the whole, so tell me according to Rom 5:19 how shall they be made righteous ?

 

[Brightfame52]

1) What is the difference between "forgiveness" by God, and "justification" by God?

They pretty much the same legally but Justification makes one righteous, beyond forgiven. But justification has the element of forgivenss also. In Rom 4:25 the word is

Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

dikaiōsis:

1. the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2. [adjudging]1 to be righteous, justification

δικαίωσις dikaíōsis, dik-ah'-yo-sis; from G1344; aquittal (for Christ's sake):—justification

 

[Van]

They pretty much the same legally but Justification makes one righteous, beyond forgiven. But justification has the element of forgivenss also. In Rom 4:25 the word is

Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

dikaiōsis:

1. the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2. [adjudging]1 to be righteous, justification

δικαίωσις dikaíōsis, dik-ah'-yo-sis; from G1344; aquittal (for Christ's sake):—justification

You need to address what I said, rather than copy and paste non-germane verses.

Jesus died, shed His blood, to provide the means of our justification, our reconciliation. He was raised to provide evidence upon which we can put our complete faith in His name.

Adam sinned, and the result is condemnation of all humanity. Christ made the sacrifice for sin, and that resulted in the means of justification for all humanity. Everyone transferred spiritually into Christ is then washed with His blood, and is justified.

 

[Brightfame52]

Jesus died, shed His blood, to provide the means of our justification, our reconciliation

Not one scripture says this

He was raised to provide evidence upon which we can put our complete faith in His name.

Not one scripture says this

Adam sinned, and the result is condemnation of all humanity. Christ made the sacrifice for sin, and that resulted in the means of justification for all humanity. Everyone transferred spiritually into Christ is then washed with His blood, and is justified

Not one scripture says this

You write your own bible lol

 

[Brightfame52]

2a) "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, (Romans 3:24) Here we have been "justified" because of God's gracious gift by means of being transferred into Christ and undergoing the washing of regeneration.

False teaching, this Rom 3:24 shows that the elect who Christ died for and redeemed, were Justified by Grace. Therefore they are born Justified by Christ from the cross.