How many here hold to The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints

[JesusFan]

Which is not quite the same as "once saved always saved"

 

[Silverhair]

Which is not quite the same as "once saved always saved"

In what way do you see it as different from OSAS.

Perseverance of the saints is a Calvinist doctrine that teaches that those who are truly saved will continue in their faith until the end and ultimately attain salvation. This concept emphasizes God's role in preserving the elect and is often associated with the idea of "eternal security."

Looks like the same idea but with different names.

 

[DaveXR650]

Looks like the same idea but with different names.

Yes. Most people use the terms interchangeably and it works fine. There is a group on the OSAS side that say that once saved a person is saved no matter what they do - even if they deliberately turn away. I think they even have developed a "free grace" society that teaches that. The "perseverance of the saints" school of thought also believe that once saved a person will stay saved - but the difference is that a truly saved person will not fall away. They tend to be reformed or at least read a lot of Puritan writings.

I hold to the perseverance of the saints. I have noticed though that some of the best and most pure in life people I know believe OSAS. I carry a Ryrie study bible and he was OSAS and is listed with the free gracers. I guess it's one of those things where what you do with the teaching means more than the precise school of thought.

 

[37818]

Which is not quite the same as "once saved always saved"

I hold to whom God saves He keeps.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

[Jhn 6:27 KJV] 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
[Eph 1:13 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[Eph 4:30 KJV] 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
[2Ti 2:19 KJV] 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

To me it is clear that The Good Shepard will NOT loose ANY of his sheep! God does not make mistakes. If you are born-again, you cannot over-ride God's will and be un-born.

You are welcome to prove me wrong based on scripture.

 

[DaveXR650]

To me it is clear that The Good Shepard will NOT loose ANY of his sheep! God does not make mistakes. If you are born-again, you cannot over-ride God's will and be un-born.

You are welcome to prove me wrong based on scripture.

I happen to think you are right. Both groups are saying exactly the same thing until you come across certain cases, where the difference in understanding is revealed. For example, and this is a real example, I was at a funeral where a fellow died in middle age. He had never shown any interest in Christ or church. But he had a Bible and in it they found a paper where he had said he accepted Christ as Savior at a Bible camp as a youth. The pastor believed that the man was definitely saved. Those who believe in the perseverance of the saints would say there is no reason to think that the person was really saved based on his overall life. But my pastor believed he was saved because that is how he understood OSAS. Obviously, none of us really "know" for sure but it does show where the differences will manifest themselves. There is a lot of overlap too in that both groups believe that such a person, if lost, never really was saved, not that he had it and then lost it.

In practical living though it can make a difference. A person who believes in OSAS may (not necessarily) but may become lax in how they live. A person who believes in the perseverance of the saints may have a lot of anxiety about whether they are living holy enough or being a good enough disciple and become neurotic or
worse, become arrogant if they meet their own standards.

 

[Silverhair]

[Jhn 6:27 KJV] 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
[Eph 1:13 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[Eph 4:30 KJV] 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
[2Ti 2:19 KJV] 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

To me it is clear that The Good Shepard will NOT loose ANY of his sheep! God does not make mistakes. If you are born-again, you cannot over-ride God's will and be un-born.

You are welcome to prove me wrong based on scripture.

These verses should give you some food for thought.


Heb_3:12-13 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. ...so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

1Ti 4:1-2 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

Heb 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

2Pe 2:20-21 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

 

[kyredneck]

Preservation, not perseverance.

 

[Charlie24]

These verses should give you some food for thought.


Heb_3:12-13 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. ...so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

1Ti 4:1-2 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

Heb 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

2Pe 2:20-21 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

There are several of these warnings in Scripture, another that comes to mind is Col. 1:21-23. There are many more if I were to track them down.

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

In saying "If you continue in the faith, and be not moved away," Paul is saying it is possible to not continue in the faith.

 

[Silverhair]

There are several of these warnings in Scripture, another that comes to mind is Col. 1:21-23. There are many more if I were to track them down.

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

In saying "If you continue in the faith, and be not moved away," Paul is saying it is possible to not continue in the faith.

If you could not turn away from your trust in Him then why the warning passages. How do calvinists and those of the OSAS view explain those?

 

[Charlie24]

If you could not turn away from your trust in Him then why the warning passages. How do calvinists and those of the OSAS view explain those?

They know what it means but don't want to admit it. That's ok with me, let them believe as they please.

But they had better do some soul searching at Commuion to be sure their faith is in the Blood of Lamb.

I"m afraid there will be some that will find themselves in the category Paul spoke of, "finding themselvs coming short of it."

 

[DaveXR650]

If you could not turn away from your trust in Him then why the warning passages. How do calvinists and those of the OSAS view explain those?

I have asked the same question in this way. How can a Puritan like John Owen, who believed in the perseverance of the saints, write reams on the dangers of apostacy and insist that any sin, held on to and continued in, can lead to damnation?

My take on it is this. The truth of a theological teaching does not mean that the person need "feel" that it's true at all times, or that it is always a constant thing in his own consciousness. To be true it only needs to be true. In other words you can strive to live a Christian life, fight against fears and failures, fight against sin, actually lose battles with the world the flesh and the devil and for a while retreat in failure, and still ultimately - 100 % of true Christians will persevere. The warnings (which are real) the fear of failure (which is real) are to be truly considered yet that does not make the teaching false - that being that all true saints persevere.

Now, the argument against this says that logically we are admitting are we not, that the possibility of apostacy in a true believer is real - and it is false to say otherwise in any case. In a sense I would agree and that's why I greatly respect the free will Baptist and Wesleyan positions on this. I see how you can come to that conclusion and I have no problem with it. If you read a lot of Puritan literature they seem to be considering a factor that is not always mentioned and is the elephant in the room in this discussion. And that is that the real problem and danger is not so much the doctrine of whether salvation can be lost. No. The real problem is our tendency to self deception regarding our salvation. The fatal error lies in us when we presume upon God's grace and expect to be delivered from punishment and not sin also. Those doing that can go along as a fellow church member and even be convinced they are believers - but they are not and never were. Thus the warnings.

 

[DaveXR650]

But they had better do some soul searching at Commuion to be sure their faith is in the Blood of Lamb.

I"m afraid there will be some that will find themselves in the category Paul spoke of, "finding themselvs coming short of it."

There is no group that spends more time soul searching than those who believe in the perseverance of the saints. The Puritans, who we depend upon for most of the development of this are in fact often accused of "morbid introspection". I think they sometimes went too far. After all, part of saving faith includes some assurance in itself that you are going to be saved, at least that's what Calvin said. And, this type of self examination is not exclusively owned by Calvinists. Richard Baxter, and Charles Wesley were big on this, although they were not Calvinists. And you are right - the thing that is clearly taught and warned about in scripture is not to find yourself coming short of it. I don't think we are required to embrace a certain theology regarding how this is done.

 

[Charlie24]

There is no group that spends more time soul searching than those who believe in the perseverance of the saints. The Puritans, who we depend upon for most of the development of this are in fact often accused of "morbid introspection". I think they sometimes went too far. After all, part of saving faith includes some assurance in itself that you are going to be saved, at least that's what Calvin said. And, this type of self examination is not exclusively owned by Calvinists. Richard Baxter, and Charles Wesley were big on this, although they were not Calvinists. And you are right - the thing that is clearly taught and warned about in scripture is not to find yourself coming short of it. I don't think we are required to embrace a certain theology regarding how this is done.

When we have the Lord's Supper quarterly (I think it should be more often) the Pastor reminds us it's time to checkup on the object of our faith.

I believe this is what Paul was referring to when he said, "examine yourselves whether you be in the faith...."

 

[Silverhair]

I have asked the same question in this way. How can a Puritan like John Owen, who believed in the perseverance of the saints, write reams on the dangers of apostacy and insist that any sin, held on to and continued in, can lead to damnation?

My take on it is this. The truth of a theological teaching does not mean that the person need "feel" that it's true at all times, or that it is always a constant thing in his own consciousness. To be true it only needs to be true. In other words you can strive to live a Christian life, fight against fears and failures, fight against sin, actually lose battles with the world the flesh and the devil and for a while retreat in failure, and still ultimately - 100 % of true Christians will persevere. The warnings (which are real) the fear of failure (which is real) are to be truly considered yet that does not make the teaching false - that being that all true saints persevere.

Now, the argument against this says that logically we are admitting are we not, that the possibility of apostacy in a true believer is real - and it is false to say otherwise in any case. In a sense I would agree and that's why I greatly respect the free will Baptist and Wesleyan positions on this. I see how you can come to that conclusion and I have no problem with it. If you read a lot of Puritan literature they seem to be considering a factor that is not always mentioned and is the elephant in the room in this discussion. And that is that the real problem and danger is not so much the doctrine of whether salvation can be lost. No. The real problem is our tendency to self deception regarding our salvation. The fatal error lies in us when we presume upon God's grace and expect to be delivered from punishment and not sin also. Those doing that can go along as a fellow church member and even be convinced they are believers - but they are not and never were. Thus the warnings.

Yes we would say that 100 % of true Christians will hold fast to their faith to the end. These people did not turn away which is just proof they were true believers.

But to make the assumption that true believers cannot turn away is just that an assumption when you consider all the warning passages.

Those that trust in the OSAS view or the calvinist perseverance of the saints view leave themselves open to the self deception that their sin does not have a consequence. When one assumes the grace of God in their lives they can let initial sin become habitual sin and thus drift further from God to the point they reject Him completely.

That is why the term fall away is misleading. Apostasy is that slow drip that wears away your faith until the last cord breaks and ones does not believe anymore and they reject God.

 

[DaveXR650]

But to make the assumption that true believers cannot turn away is just that an assumption when you consider all the warning passages.

I think this is why the Bible is not written as systematic theology. It is living and we can read it for our benefit and let the passages help us where we are. Several people have asked how in the world someone could hold that true saints will persevere in light of the warning passages and I'm explaining that the warning passages are to be taken at face value and for our benefit. There are also passages that indicate Christ will hold you fast. You have a couple of choices. Either say all theology is baloney and accept that you live with seemingly contradictory passages without questioning. Or, embrace a specific theology and then try to explain away troublesome passages that don't seem to support your theology. Or, go by my explanation above, which may or may not be right but it's my take on it for what that's worth.

At any rate, it is an undisputable fact that the Puritan writings did hold that the saints will infallibly persevere, yet the warning passages were to be taken as they were and heeded, as if your salvation depended upon you heeding the warning. I'm not asking that anyone else embrace that but the thread asked where we stood and that's where I stand. This thread did not ask about those who actually believe that you can loose your salvation - only the difference between OSAS and the perseverance of the saints.

So getting back to the original question. Another way of stating the difference as I see it is that when I was at a strong OSAS church there was a marked tendency to presume upon the grace of God in that it was taught that you could get saved and then optionally live a Christian life. Either way, you were saved. The churches that teach perseverance of the saints reject that as the name implies. What makes it complicated is that many of the OSAS believers live very serious lives before God and men so you can't really make a conclusion about a person based on their view of this. In practice there is not that much difference.

I think it was Martyn Lloyd-Jones who said that if you were not occasionally accused of antinomianism you were not preaching the gospel. And likewise, it was John R. Rice who was told once "you make it seem so easy" to which he replied "it is, Christ died to make it easy". Lloyd-Jones taught the perseverance of the saints and Rice was OSAS. Both guys to my knowledge, were serious followers of Christ their whole lives.

 

[DaveXR650]

When we have the Lord's Supper quarterly (I think it should be more often) the Pastor reminds us it's time to checkup on the object of our faith.

I believe this is what Paul was referring to when he said, "examine yourselves whether you be in the faith...."

Yeah. We did that especially at the Reformed church I went to. The pastor at one point even had to say that eating and drinking in an unworthy manner did not mean we had to be perfect before we could participate - after all, we are all, in ourselves unworthy.

Preservation, not perseverance.

The older you get and the longer you have been a believer, the more you realize that most of what is going on is in reality what Ky says above. On our own, we would persevere a couple of days most likely.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

[Jhn 6:27 KJV] 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
[Eph 1:13 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[Eph 4:30 KJV] 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
[2Ti 2:19 KJV] 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

To me it is clear that The Good Shepard will NOT loose ANY of his sheep! God does not make mistakes. If you are born-again, you cannot over-ride God's will and be un-born.

You are welcome to prove me wrong based on scripture.

Amen

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Preservation, not perseverance.

Yes absolutely

 

[Reynolds]

Which is not quite the same as "once saved always saved"

I do .