Dead in Sin

[Silverhair]

Really? It's not me you're disagreeing with; actually it's God.

Actually it is your calvinism that is in disagreement with God.

Dead in sin is not dead Martin that is just the error of Augustine and Calvin and those that follow him.

1 Cor. 1:21. For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God, through the message of the message preached, to save those who believe.' God will have His word preached, and everyone who believes and trusts in Christ will be saved (Acts 16:31 etc.). The gates of heaven are wide open (John 6:37; Rev. 22:17 etc.). The problem is not with God keeping people out, but with people who will not repent and believe (John 3:29; 5:40). If God did not drag some people in, no one would be saved (Romans 3:11ff).
But the greatest and most active preachers of the Gospel have mostly been Calvinists. I am preaching tomorrow, and if I thought people's eternal salvation depended on me, I would be paralysed with fear. But because I know that it is God who gives life to sinners who are dead in trespasses and sins, I can preach with confidence, knowing that God can use my poor words to open the hearts of sinners and save them, and that His word will not return to Him void.

For someone that preaches you do seem to have a distorted view of God's word.

Those dead in sin that you will be preaching to have the free will with which to turn in faith and by the grace of God be saved. If they were so dead in sin as you suggest then why bother preaching to them. It would be like preaching to stones and expecting them to repent.

Actually my question for you is why do you bother preaching at all? According to your calvinism God will just drag them in and give them faith no matter what. To say God commanded it is a rather lame excuse for any calvinist. Do you tell them that if they are not one of the "elect" then they are just fooling themselves. They are lost and there is nothing they can do about it. And even if they think they are one of the "elect" they may be wrong and will find out later that they were lost all along.

Now that would be you preaching an honest calvinist message of salvation. Do you do that or do you preach that they must trust in the risen Christ for their salvation?

 

[37818]

If God did not drag some people in, no one would be saved (Romans 3:11ff).

The non-Calvinist answer is the hearing the word of God causing hearing the Gospel. Romans 1:16, Hebrews 4:12.

Thank you @Silverhair.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The non-Calvinist answer is the hearing the word of God causing hearing the Gospel. Romans 1:16, Hebrews 4:12.

Thank you @Silverhair.

John 6:44. The word translated 'draw' in that verse may equally be translated 'drag.'

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Dead in sin is not dead Martin that is just the error of Augustine and Calvin and those that follow him.

Right! So 'dead in sin' really means 'alive in sin.' Too bad you didn't tell God in time for Him to change the Bible.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Those dead in sin that you will be preaching to have the free will with which to turn in faith and by the grace of God be saved. If they were so dead in sin as you suggest then why bother preaching to them. It would be like preaching to stones and expecting them to repent.

Actually my question for you is why do you bother preaching at all? According to your calvinism God will just drag them in and give them faith no matter what. To say God commanded it is a rather lame excuse for any calvinist. Do you tell them that if they are not one of the "elect" then they are just fooling themselves. They are lost and there is nothing they can do about it. And even if they think they are one of the "elect" they may be wrong and will find out later that they were lost all along.

Now that would be you preaching an honest calvinist message of salvation. Do you do that or do you preach that they must trust in the risen Christ for their salvation?

Do you know anyone who has been up to heaven, had a quick look at the Book of Life and found his name missing there? No? Nor have I. So I tell anyone who will hear that if they will repent and trust in Christ, they will be saved. And they will (Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; Romans 9:13).

What do you tell people? That God really loves them and has a great plan for their lives? That is pure poison! People from the Christian Union told me that when I was at University, and I believed them. So I didn't repent, I didn't trust in Jesus because God loved me anyway.
What you need to be telling people, believing what you do, is that God doesn't love anybody enough to save them so it's all down to them to save themselves.

 

[Silverhair]

Right! So 'dead in sin' really means 'alive in sin.' Too bad you didn't tell God in time for Him to change the Bible.

Actually we are physically alive in our sin but we are dead spiritually. You as a minister should know that.

Being dead spiritually means that we are lost and bound for hell, not the we are unable to see His creation, hear the gospel message or be convicted of our sin by the Holy Spirit and respond to any of the various means that God uses to draw people to Himself.

Do you not have Eph 1:13 or Rom 10:9-10 in your bible? Christ said He would draw all to Himself why do you doubt this? We who have responded in faith will be saved by our living savior Christ Jesus Rom 5:1-2.

So it is not the bible that needs to be changed but the calvinism that you promote. You have allowed Augustine/Calvinist pagan philosophy to corrupt the word of God. You preach a different gospel, one that closes the door of salvation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If they were so dead in sin as you suggest then why bother preaching to them. It would be like preaching to stones and expecting them to repent.

Ezekiel 37:3-10.
Lazarus is dead. He has been in the tomb for four days. You might try telling him to wake up; that it's really not a good look being dead; that it's much nicer being alive, and that his friends and his sisters miss him. All these things are perfectly true, but it's not going to wake Lazarus wake up because he's dead.
More than that, Lazarus doesn't deserve to be woken up, because, between you and me,, Lazarus is a bit of a stinker (John 11:29). He's not just dead, but dead in trespasses and sins. And being dead, there's no way for him to make amends for them.
But when the Lord Jesus Christ, who has taken Lazarus' sins upon Himself and paid the penalty for them in full, calls out, "Lazarus, come forth!" Then Lazarus will indeed come forth, without a spot on him in the eyes of God.

As Heinrich Bullinger said, the preaching of the word of God is the word of God. "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live" (John 5:25). When people hear the word of God preached - that is when the dead rise!

 

[Van]

Note the poster misquoted scripture to fit his doctrine, which is common in all his arguments. Readers beware those that must change the words of scripture to fit their bias.

Matthew 7:13 says “many” attempt to enter broad gate that leads to destruction and “few” find the narrow gate that leads to life.

This poster changes the words of our Lord Jesus to say the opposite of the meaning, that MANY are seeking the narrow gate.

It is not the first time, nor will it be the last time. No amount of biblical truth can change a pre conceived secular bias on the issue of the doctrines of grace.

Peace to you

Once again, a totally false claim is made against me. Luke 13:24 NASB:

“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.​

And here is the quote from my post #7:

Note the poster asks questions but does not explain how many seek the narrow door if being spiritually dead precludes it.​

​

 

[Van]

Note that the poster asks questions but does not answer the ones that I put to him.
All sorts of people seek the narrow door and don't find it. The Pharisee in Luke 18 is one (see Matthew 5:20); Paul, according to Phil. 3:4-6 is another. And don't we all know people who are New Age freaks, promoters of the green agenda, big givers to charity, haters of homosexuals, immigrants or whomever. And these people, even if they are avowed atheists, know deep in their hearts that there is a God and they think to themselves, "If there is a God, He's sure to be pleased with me for my zeal, ethical righteousnes or whatever." These are the people that the Lord Jesus is talking about.

A none denial denial. Many seek the narrow door is truth no one ever seeks after God is heresy.

When shown their error, they do not repent. They double down, the many were NOT really seeking God. They nullify verse after verse saying they do not mean what they say. People are NOT chosen through faith in the truth. God did NOT chose those rich in faith. I could go on and on, but none of these advocates of dark age theology might not repent, and submit to God's word.

 

[Silverhair]

Do you know anyone who has been up to heaven, had a quick look at the Book of Life and found his name missing there? No? Nor have I. So I tell anyone who will hear that if they will repent and trust in Christ, they will be saved. And they will (Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; Romans 9:13).

What do you tell people? That God really loves them and has a great plan for their lives? That is pure poison! People from the Christian Union told me that when I was at University, and I believed them. So I didn't repent, I didn't trust in Jesus because God loved me anyway.
What you need to be telling people, believing what you do, is that God doesn't love anybody enough to save them so it's all down to them to save themselves.

So by your own words you preach free will "I tell anyone who will hear that if they will repent and trust in Christ, they will be saved." But calvinism says man has no free will with which to trust in God.

I can only present the truth I cannot make them believe it and God will not force them to believe it.

I tell people that God loves the whole world enough to save the whole world through His risen son that if they will repent and believe they will be saved. But you on the other hand, if you are a consistent calvinist, have to tell them that He only loves a select group that were picked out before creation. If they are not in that group then they are lost and condemned to hell with no chance of salvation.

We are all sinners so what makes the calvinist think they were so special that God picked them out for salvation? Were they more humble, I doubt it as it seems the height of arrogance to think you were actually chosen by God for salvation before creation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So by your own words you preach free will "I tell anyone who will hear that if they will repent and trust in Christ, they will be saved." But calvinism says man has no free will with which to trust in God.

So by your own words you reveal that you don't know what Calvinism is. Have you never read Spurgeon's sermons, or Whitefield's (much easier to read than Wesley's)? Have you never read Come and Welcome to the Lord Jesus Christ by John Bunyan? Most of the preachers most used by God in the salvation of sinners have been Calvinists. And even the Wesleys and the Methodists who followed them (also greatly used by God) believed that 'prevenient grace' was needed to open a sinner's eyes, though they erroneously believed that it could be resisted.

 

[Silverhair]

Ezekiel 37:3-10.
Lazarus is dead. He has been in the tomb for four days. You might try telling him to wake up; that it's really not a good look being dead; that it's much nicer being alive, and that his friends and his sisters miss him. All these things are perfectly true, but it's not going to wake Lazarus wake up because he's dead.
More than that, Lazarus doesn't deserve to be woken up, because, between you and me,, Lazarus is a bit of a stinker (John 11:29). He's not just dead, but dead in trespasses and sins. And being dead, there's no way for him to make amends for them.
But when the Lord Jesus Christ, who has taken Lazarus' sins upon Himself and paid the penalty for them in full, calls out, "Lazarus, come forth!" Then Lazarus will indeed come forth, without a spot on him in the eyes of God.

As Heinrich Bullinger said, the preaching of the word of God is the word of God. "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live" (John 5:25). When people hear the word of God preached - that is when the dead rise!

So again you leave your Calvinism and step into Arminianism to preach free will salvation.

You seem to be a very inconsistent calvinist or should I say you are a consistent calvinist as you know you have to preach free will salvation.

Odd that you would use Lazarus to support your view. Lazarus already trusted in Jesus so Christ was not calling him to salvation but rather showing the people that He was indeed their long awaited Messiah through do miracles that only God could do.

You say that Christ had taken Lazarus's sins on Himself but since Christ had not gone to the cross at that time He had not yet been the atonement for the sins of the world.

When the word of God is preached and they freely trust in the risen Christ then the dead rise. Many will hear but not all will respond in faith.

 

[Dave G]

"Dead in trespasses and sins" is the spiritual condition of all men before God.

When He speaks of this, He is speaking from His own perspective of the One who can and does see the hearts of all His creations and what we have become ( Romans 1 ).

He has given the details of this condition to His apostles and prophets to then pass on to those of His elect, so that they will know what it is that He has rescued them from, on a personal and spiritual level...ourselves and our love of sin and hatred of Him and His ways:

" being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. " ( Romans 1:29-32 ).

" This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
But ye have not so learned Christ;
if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." ( Ephesians 4:17-24 ).

This is who we are without the power of God...without His Spirit within us and without the miracle of the new birth.

The definition of "dead in trespasses and sins" is found right in the words of God, my friends...
There is no need to argue over what it means, as one only has to read and believe what is written.


May God bless each of you in His grace and mercy.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I can only present the truth

You certainly can't do that.

I tell people that God loves the whole world enough to save the whole world through His risen son

In other words, God doesn't love anyone enough to save them. He has left it up to you to persuade them with your dazzling eloquence (No hope there!) or by their own wisdom.

that if they will repent and believe they will be saved.

Then we both teach the same thing! What are we arguing about?

We are all sinners so what makes the calvinist think they were so special that God picked them out for salvation? Were they more humble, I doubt it as it seems the height of arrogance to think you were actually chosen by God for salvation before creation.

We are all sinners so what makes the Pelagian think he is so special that He has the superior knowledge/wisdom/ability to believe when others haven't. Is he more humble? I doubt it as it seems the height of arrogance to think you were chosen because of your superior itelligence or other qualities.

Deut. 7:7-8. 'The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than ny other people, for you were the least of all peoples; but because the LORD loves you and because He would keep His oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage.' That, along with Rom. 10:15, 20-21, is as good a reason as you will get as to why God chooses some and not others. No one brings himself out with his own mighty hand, and no one redeems himself from the house of bondage. We are totally shut up to God's mercy.

 

[Silverhair]

"Dead in trespasses and sins" is the spiritual condition of all men before God.

When He speaks of this, He is speaking from His own perspective of the One who can and does see the hearts of all His creations and what we have become ( Romans 1 ).

He has given the details of this condition to His apostles and prophets to then pass on to those of His elect, so that they will know what it is that He has rescued them from, on a personal and spiritual level...ourselves and our love of sin and hatred of Him and His ways:

" being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. " ( Romans 1:29-32 ).

" This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
But ye have not so learned Christ;
if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." ( Ephesians 4:17-24 ).

This is who we are without the power of God...without His Spirit within us and without the miracle of the new birth.

The definition of "dead in trespasses and sins" is found right in the words of God, my friends...
There is no need to argue over what it means, as one only has to read and believe what is written.


May God bless each of you in His grace and mercy.

Yes we are sinners but to say that we do not have the ability to reason is in simple words silly.

God has provided the various means for us to know Him and will hold us responsible for how we do.

To say we can only trust in Him once we are saved is illogical on it's face.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So again you leave your Calvinism and step into Arminianism to preach free will salvation

So again you prove that you don't know what Calvinism is. You accuse me of inconsistency because I don't fit your caricature. Read the sermons or other works of Calvinists like Keach, Bunyan, Spurgeon and others. Read what Carey preached to the Indians. Read Calvin's sermons, come to that. Best of all, read Spurgeon v. Hyper-Calvinism by Iain Murray, then you might come to understand what Calvinism is.
Here's a sample of Spurgeon's preaching.

'"Repent and be baptized," says Peter. As John Bunyan puts it - one man might have stood up in the crowd and said, "But I helped hound Him to the cross!" "Repent and be baptized, every one of you." "But I helped drive the nails into His hands," saith one. "Every one of you!" Says Peter. "But I pierced His side!" "Every one of you," said Peter. "And I put my tongue into my cheek, stared at His nakedness and said, 'If He be the Son of God, let Him come down from the cross!'" "Every one of you, said Peter. "Repent and be baptized every one of you."
I do feel so grieved at many of our Calvinistic brethren; they know nothing about Calvinism, I am sorry to say, for never was any man more caricatured by his professed followers than John Calvin.' [C.H. Spurgeon, quoted by Iain Murray in Spurgeon v. Hyper-Calvinism]

 

[Silverhair]

You certainly can't do that

For me to tell someone that they are saved by faith in the risen Christ is logical and biblical. For the calvinist that goes against their stated view of salvation. For the calvinist one has to be saved before God gives them faith to believe which is non-biblical.

In other words, God doesn't love anyone enough to save them. He has left it up to you to persuade them with your dazzling eloquence (No hope there!) or by their own wisdom.

God loves the whole world so much He sent His son so that that world could be saved. You do seem to have an odd view of the gospel message that we are to share. It is not my nor your words that will persuade but the power of God. But at the end the person has to make the choice to believe or reject the message.

Then we both teach the same thing! What are we arguing about?

We teach the same thing but you have to ignore your basic calvinist philosophy in order to do so and it is just what I actually believe.

We are all sinners so what makes the Pelagian think he is so special that He has the superior knowledge/wisdom/ability to believe when others haven't. Is he more humble? I doubt it as it seems the height of arrogance to think you were chosen because of your superior itelligence or other qualities.

Well since I do not know any Pelagian's I cannot speak for them. But as for the average individual it is not a matter of having superior knowledge/wisdom/ability to believe. It is a matter of being wise enough to trust what they have heard. Would you not consider it unwise for someone to reject the offer of salvation?

We are given the gift of salvation because we chose to trust in the risen Christ. Superior intelligence has nothing to do with it as we see many highly intelligent people reject Christ. It is just being humble and knowing that one is lost and in need of a savior.

 

[Silverhair]

So again you prove that you don't know what Calvinism is. You accuse me of inconsistency because I don't fit your caricature. Read the sermons or other works of Calvinists like Keach, Bunyan, Spurgeon and others. Read what Carey preached to the Indians. Read Calvin's sermons, come to that. Best of all, read Spurgeon v. Hyper-Calvinism by Iain Murray, then you might come to understand what Calvinism is.
Here's a sample of Spurgeon's preaching.

'"Repent and be baptized," says Peter. As John Bunyan puts it - one man might have stood up in the crowd and said, "But I helped hound Him to the cross!" "Repent and be baptized, every one of you." "But I helped drive the nails into His hands," saith one. "Every one of you!" Says Peter. "But I pierced His side!" "Every one of you," said Peter. "And I put my tongue into my cheek, stared at His nakedness and said, 'If He be the Son of God, let Him come down from the cross!'" "Every one of you, said Peter. "Repent and be baptized every one of you."
I do feel so grieved at many of our Calvinistic brethren; they know nothing about Calvinism, I am sorry to say, for never was any man more caricatured by his professed followers than John Calvin.' [C.H. Spurgeon, quoted by Iain Murray in Spurgeon v. Hyper-Calvinism]

Martin I know what calvinist will preach, free will, but that is not what your DoG/TULIP shows is it.

The calvinst has to preach as a Arminian as none would come to faith if you actually preached your philosophy.

Calvinists have to be inconsistent.

 

[Ascetic X]

No fallen human being can generate their own faith or their own repentance - not me, not you, not anyone.

Then why did John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter go around telling people to repent and believe the gospel? If nobody can do this, the command is an impossibility to obey.

Why did Jesus act perturbed and accuse His disciples as having so little faith? Why did He tell individuals their faith has made them whole?

If nobody is responsible, nor able, to generate their own faith or repentance, it is also not their fault if they have no faith or repentance.

If Jesus, John the Baptist, and Peter conformed to Calvinist ideology, they should have told individuals to ask God to do their believing and repentance for them.

 

[canadyjd]

Once again, a totally false claim is made against me. Luke 13:24 NASB:

​

“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. ​

And here is the quote from my post #7:

​

Note the poster asks questions but does not explain how many seek the narrow door if being spiritually dead precludes it. ​

​

I stand corrected. My apologies

Peace to you