From the Catholic perspective you suffered loss, the loss of the sacraments of the Eucharist and Confession amongst other things.
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- Thread starter Cathode
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From the Catholic perspective you suffered loss, the loss of the sacraments of the Eucharist and Confession amongst other things.
From the IFB perspective I made profession of faith in water Baptism.
That was my public profession of faith.
My original profession of faith that granted me the grace of God to salvation was made in my heart when I heard and believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I was saved, washed in the Blood, born-again a new creation in Christ at that very moment.
I think the catholic view is more nuanced.
1. You are saved by grace through faith at salvation.
2. BUT you also need to keep being saved, of which works is a necessary inclusion.
3. And at your death/Christs return, you will be ultimately saved.
Cathode can correct me if I summarized incorrectly.
That was my public profession of faith.
My original profession of faith that granted me the grace of God to salvation was made in my heart when I heard and believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I was saved, washed in the Blood, born-again a new creation in Christ at that very moment.
No, no! What keeps me saved is what got me saved, faith in Jesus Christ.
You are making our progressive sanctification a part of our salvation.
That is a damning belief we Protestants separated ourselves from.
Very informative via The Office of The Anglican Communion: The Joint Declaration On Justification. I also appreciate the perspective of N.T. Wright on this historic declaration:
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Im just trying to clarify the nuance of catholicism (as I have gathered, im not RC), because many protestants dont think that catholics believe in being saved by grace through faith.
Ty for sharing!
Put it this way, it’s the best way I know to put it.
Are you being faithful if you don’t love your neighbour and feed hungry, and clothe the naked etc.? No obviously.
Doing these things then are part of your faith not something separate, but faith acted out through love.
So Faith alone, but Faith working through Love as Paul says.
@C
Yes, If a man is truly born-again he will do these things. I do these things quite often through the Church for those in need and on a person to person basis in the Christian spirit. It's our nature to do these things.
If you can understand the following you will understand the traditional way of those so-called heretics, the Reformers.
The old saying is "we are saved, we are going to be saved, and we will be saved."
These are the 3 levels of sanctification that the believer must understand.
"We are saved" is our sanctification in Christ the very moment we believe, it's our new position in Christ as heirs to the Kingdom.
"We are going to be saved" is our processive sanctification throughout this life continuously conforming us to the image of Christ. The Holy Spirit is working in us taking away the things of the flesh and replacing it with the ways of Christ. This last throughout our physical loves on this earth.
"We will be saved" is our total sanctification at the resurrection when the body is rejoined with the spirit and soul and our salvation is complete. At this point we have a glorified body as did Christ, the corruptible has become incorruptible.
Yes, If a man is truly born-again he will do these things. I do these things quite often through the Church for those in need and on a person to person basis in the Christian spirit. It's our nature to do these things.
If you can understand the following you will understand the traditional way of those so-called heretics, the Reformers.
The old saying is "we are saved, we are going to be saved, and we will be saved."
These are the 3 levels of sanctification that the believer must understand.
"We are saved" is our sanctification in Christ the very moment we believe, it's our new position in Christ as heirs to the Kingdom.
"We are going to be saved" is our processive sanctification throughout this life continuously conforming us to the image of Christ. The Holy Spirit is working in us taking away the things of the flesh and replacing it with the ways of Christ. This last throughout our physical loves on this earth.
"We will be saved" is our total sanctification at the resurrection when the body is rejoined with the spirit and soul and our salvation is complete. At this point we have a glorified body as did Christ, the corruptible has become incorruptible.
It’s our definitions of “ Faith “ that are at issue.
Catholics don’t believe that saving Faith is just intellectual assent.
Like “ Yeah, I believe in Jesus and He died for my sins “ but then not love your neighbour and feed the hungry or do any of those things.
That’s dead faith.
Faith that works through love is saving Faith.
And that's why I'm a Protestant.
You are working your whole lives on the earth to earn salvation. Misinterpreting James and doing exactly what Paul said not to do.
I'm working my whole life because I'm saved, the moment I believed I was placed safe and secure in Jesus Christ.
My responsibility to God is use Christ as my example for allowing the Holy Spirit to work through me, and all the good things you mentioned will be fulfilled through faith.
It’s not automatic.
This is why Paul talks about having Faith that can move mountains, but by not having Love you are nothing.
Faith is never alone, there is a trinity.
Faith, Hope and Love, and greatest of these is Love, because God is Love. These are the three things that remain, and are gifts of Grace.
Faith outside of this trinity is dead.
Faith Hope and Love work together for salvation.
The best test of saving Faith is the evidence of Love.
There is a Faith that doesn’t love, that walks by Lazarus every day without pity. That’s not a saving Faith.
Faith is about "walking in the Spirit" as Paul told us to do.
That is placing our faith in Christ and submitting our lives to Him allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us in Truth.
None what you have said can be done without that submitting and allowing the Holy Spirit to work through us.
As a born-again believer in Christ we can walk in the flesh or walk in the Spirit, by grace through faith you position in Christ has not changed.
Gal. 5:16-17
"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."
Paul said if you don't walk in the Spirit, a continual submission to the Spirit "you cannot do the things that you would."
You cannot carry out the things you have been talking about, Cathode. You cannot accomplish anything the Holy Spirit has prepared for you to do.
I dont think any christians i know would disagree with that.
Edit: to add that all faith the bible talks about is a trust, loyalty, reliance. This is why the thief on the cross was saved.
The problem I see in Cathode's post and can't agree with it is that it teaches faith + works = salvation.
"For are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any should boast."
Cathode is placing James and Paul at odds with one another on works, that is not what is happening.
Exactly. Grace prompts us to compassion.
Faith, Hope, Love all by Grace.
“ And moved with compassion Jesus reached out His hand “
We are moved to compassion by Grace.
But Grace prompts us, it doesn’t force us or turn us into automatons.
You drive down a road and see someone in dire need as you drive by. Grace prompts you and you look back in your rear vision mirror weighing the decision. But you are in a rush to an important meeting, and you drive on much lesser a Christian than you thought you were. Reasoning that someone else will stop and help them
The thief on the Cross did do a good work. He defended and witnessed to Jesus innocence as opposed to his own guilt.
This was a great work of love considering it was with his dying breathes.
“ He who witnesses to me before men, I will witness to him before my Father in Heaven “
Paul tells us straight out that works have nothing to do with our salvation.
James is explaining the quality of the of the faith that saves.
The quality of faith that submits to the Holy Spirit and allows fruits to be produced through a working faith.
If you don't understand this, Cathode, the Protestant will always be a mystery to you.