If once saved - can again be lost? The Poll

[DaveXR650]

If you're saying that James is teaching faith + works = salvation, you are mistaken.

Paul states beyond a shadow of doubt salvation is without works.

James in defining the quality of faith needed for salvation, the kind of faith that " Believes from the heart, and works will accompany it.

That is what the Catholics say.
From the Council of Trent Anathema's
"Canon 24. “If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.”

This clearly denies what we say in that works are "necessary" but only in the sense that they are fruit or evidence of justification. They clearly combine the two and curse us for not doing so. Of course the danger is that we will get it in our minds that the merits of our justification include more than Christ, which is clearly warned against in Galatians.

I've often wondered, at the level of a layman in a church, how much it matters in a practical sense if for instance a Catholic truly believes that all the merits relating to salvation are only from the work of Christ but that works are necessary if life is continued for some time. The Protestants also teach that if life is continued that works are inevitable and therefore could be said to be essential, as long as it is understood that it is not providing any additional merit towards justification.

If you read Trent it is obvious that it was designed to refute the Reformers. (Reading Owen will confirm that.) But really from a purely layman standpoint the differences are subtle and that is why I don't tend to condemn individual members of a Catholic church lightly. Neither did Spurgeon, or the Puritans, or J.C. Ryle for that matter. But, in practice I find the average Catholic knows nothing of the true gospel or how to be saved. Unfortunately, neither do most mainline Protestants and many Baptists. God help us all.

 

[Charlie24]

That is what the Catholics say.
From the Council of Trent Anathema's
"Canon 24. “If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.”

This clearly denies what we say in that works are "necessary" but only in the sense that they are fruit or evidence of justification. They clearly combine the two and curse us for not doing so. Of course the danger is that we will get it in our minds that the merits of our justification include more than Christ, which is clearly warned against in Galatians.

I've often wondered, at the level of a layman in a church, how much it matters in a practical sense if for instance a Catholic truly believes that all the merits relating to salvation are only from the work of Christ but that works are necessary if life is continued for some time. The Protestants also teach that if life is continued that works are inevitable and therefore could be said to be essential, as long as it is understood that it is not providing any additional merit towards justification.

If you read Trent it is obvious that it was designed to refute the Reformers. (Reading Owen will confirm that.) But really from a purely layman standpoint the differences are subtle and that is why I don't tend to condemn individual members of a Catholic church lightly. Neither did Spurgeon, or the Puritans, or J.C. Ryle for that matter. But, in practice I find the average Catholic knows nothing of the true gospel or how to be saved. Unfortunately, neither do most mainline Protestants and many Baptists. God help us all.

Well said, Dave!

 

[Walter]

Pope Benedict XVI taught: “Luther’s phrase ‘faith alone’ is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St. Paul speaks of faith that works through love” (General Audience, Nov. 19, 2008).

 

[Silverhair]

Salvation is by faith alone, but that faith must be authentic, which means it produces fruit. Works do not save, they prove you have salvation.

James 2:26

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

2 Peter 1:5 New Living

In view of all this, make every effort to respond to God’s promises. Supplement your faith with a generous provision of moral excellence, and moral excellence with knowledge,

Matthew 7:21-23

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. / Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ / Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

But the fruit that a saved person may produce could be some that the world will not see.

Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

Eph 5:9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),

God does judge us by even the good works we may do but by our heart.

 

[Ascetic X]

Fruit will be seen and known. We are saved by faith and judged by works.

Matthew 7:16-20

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


2 Corinthians 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.


Revelation 20:12

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is rthe book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

 

[DaveXR650]

Pope Benedict XVI taught: “Luther’s phrase ‘faith alone’ is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St. Paul speaks of faith that works through love” (General Audience, Nov. 19, 2008).

I always had a lot of respect for Benedict ever since I stumbled on some writings he had done on the Trinity before he was a pope. You have to remember that even among protestants this is not easy when you get into the details. Jonathan Edwards was sometimes criticized for not being pure enough on justification. More recently so was John Piper. Some of the Puritans had a definition of saving faith that seems to include intention to do works within faith itself, which can be confusing. Richard Baxter of course went way off on this and is considered by some to have gone with Rome on justification, although he later seemed to clarify himself somewhat.

Just thinking out loud I have to admit I have a hard time believing that someday God would say to someone that the reason they are going to Hell is because they believed that justification came first by faith alone and that works were done later as part of their sanctification - yet that seems to be what the Trent anathema states. Benedict seems to be clarifying that somewhat. But it will never be resolved to the satisfaction of all theologians. We just need to realize that while we are justified by faith alone, our faith is in Christ, not faith in our clear and theologically correct understanding of the definition of justification.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is what Ezekiel 18 explains:

If an unrighteous man turns from unrighteousness God will forgive him

If a righteousness man turns from righteousness God will condemn him.

I think that both are true. A righteous man who abandons righteousness will not be remembered for the good he has done but for the evil.


My argument is regarding salvation. I tend to view being saved (present) as looking to being saved from the wrath to come (future). We either will or we will not. It is impossible to be saved from something yet when that something comes perish from that thing.

If one is righteousness (under the New Covenant) and then rejects Christ I do not believe it is logical to say that he was ever saved from the wrath to come.

One could say he was safe as long as he remained in Christ. But in rejecting Christ he demonstrated that his "heart of stone" remained.


I do believe that the doctrine of eternal security is often abused and misapplied.

The promise in this life is that if you remain in Him, He will remain in you. This remaining in Him is the evidence that you are saved.


We are to constantly test our faith to see that we are numbered among the elect, lest we find we have an unbelieving heart.

So let me ask you, what are we put here on this earth to do.. what is our purpose? The Jews claim they are a chosen race, but chosen for what you may ask& there answer is to do over 600 miitzvas in order to make earth a heavenly Godly place to live but nowhere does it say that god charges non Jews to the same tasks. In Fact, we aren’t to be Judizer’s .. so what’s our task… to be righteous? That sounds odd. The Jews are given monumental tasks (works) to perform in order to bring heaven to earth but all non jews have to do… we just gotta be righteous!?!

I’m told in scriptures that I am also chosen from the foundations of the earth and I’m Mortal and aChild Of God so if I just believe in Christ thus I am a Christian therefore “Saved” but if I don’t I’m going to hell…I heard that constantly with the Catholics. You must go to mass/church, you must go to Holy Days of obligation, you have to step through the 7 Sacraments… oh and “sin” is partitioned Into Mortal & Venial sins ( with Mortal being the bad sins that put you in hell fires), oh my!

So again I ask, what is my task as the Goyem who walks the earth? What’s my covenant, my function, my task… and then how does god support it? If your going to tell me it’s to suffer in life and carry my cross I don’t buy it… why hurt your children? Are you a psychotic god?

 

[Ben1445]

So let me ask you, what are we put here on this earth to do.. what is our purpose? The Jews claim they are a chosen race, but chosen for what you may ask& there answer is to do over 600 miitzvas in order to make earth a heavenly Godly place to live but nowhere does it say that god charges non Jews to the same tasks. In Fact, we aren’t to be Judizer’s .. so what’s our task… to be righteous? That sounds odd. The Jews are given monumental tasks (works) to perform in order to bring heaven to earth but all non jews have to do… we just gotta be righteous!?!

I’m told in scriptures that I am also chosen from the foundations of the earth and I’m Mortal and aChild Of God so if I just believe in Christ thus I am a Christian therefore “Saved” but if I don’t I’m going to hell…I heard that constantly with the Catholics. You must go to mass/church, you must go to Holy Days of obligation, you have to step through the 7 Sacraments… oh and “sin” is partitioned Into Mortal & Venial sins ( with Mortal being the bad sins that put you in hell fires), oh my!

So again I ask, what is my task as the Goyem who walks the earth? What’s my covenant, my function, my task… and then how does god support it? If your going to tell me it’s to suffer in life and carry my cross I don’t buy it… why hurt your children? Are you a psychotic god?

Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

1 Thessalonians 1:9
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?