Everything is Not Out of Control, Everything is Under God's Sovereign Control

[Believeth]

This has nothing to do with God wanting sin to happen, it is about the punishment of sin.

Another example would be the crucifixion. If God eternally purposed for Christ to be slain so as to bring glory to Himself, was it an absolute necessity that the sinful acts of men be included in that plan?

 

[37818]

But God gave them a lying spirit, indicating that they otherwise would not have. God punishes sin, but God also has the freedom to use sin to accomplish His purposes.

James 1:13, Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: . . . .

 

[Believeth]

James 1:13, Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: . . . .

Of course, God doesn't coerce someone into doing something that they would otherwise be reluctant to do. However, in this case, God did give them a lying spirit because they had no desire to repent from lying in the first place.

 

[Ben1445]

There is not an atom in the entire universe that God created that moves except for God's purposes and God's glory.

Phew!
What a relief to know that every time I sin I am just doing God’s will.

That is an extremely sarcastic statement. But it is the natural conclusion and reality of your statement.

There is another option where God will have glory and accomplish His purpose in spite of the dust that does not follow Him, obey Him, and at times even recognize Him.

No one rational is saying that God is overpowered by His creation. God having the final say is true Sovereignty. Sovereignty is not absolute control. It is authority. Kings are sovereign yet they do not control every or even very many of the molecules that they are sovereign over.
You don’t understand the meaning of sovereignty.

 

[KenH]

Quote me scripture that God sovereignly brings about that His commandments be disobeyed for His purposes and His glory.

Romans 9:16-18
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[KenH]

What a relief to know that every time I sin I am just doing God’s will.

I am not relieved of my responsibility because God is absolutely sovereign. When I sin, I am the one actually committing the sin, much to my grief and shame.

Just as faith and repentance are given by the God to His elect after their spiritual regeneration by the Holy Spirit, His elect do actually believe and do actually repent of their dead works. Yet it is God Himself who brings about their believing and their repenting by His almighty power.

Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.

False religion teaches that it is fallen mankind's power that brings about their willingness. The Bible teaches that it is God's power that brings about their willingness.

 

[Ascetic X]

Romans 9:16-18
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Exodus 8:32

And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

 

[KenH]

Exodus 8:32

And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Yes, Pharoah hardened his heart because God sovereignly caused him to do so, according to Romans 9:16-18.

God is the first cause of ALL things in His creation, not the creation.

 

[KenH]

James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

Correct. Man is tempted by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. (1 John 2:16)

Again, I reiterate, God is the FIRST cause of ALL things in His creation. Yet it is man who actually - physically, mentally - lusts after the flesh, lusts after the eyes, lusts after the pride of life. Therefore, I am without excuse when I sin.

 

[Ascetic X]

Correct. Man is tempted by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. (1 John 2:16)

Again, I reiterate, God is the FIRST cause of ALL things in His creation. Yet it is man who actually - physically, mentally - lusts after the flesh, lusts after the eyes, lusts after the pride of life. Therefore, I am without excuse when I sin.

So according to your Calvinist philosophy, when a person sins, God wills the sin to happen.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Genesis 50:20. 'But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.'
God determines all things, but at the same time He is not the author or approver of evil (Psalm 50:21; 1 John 2:16). If we find it hard to know how He can do that, the reason may be that He is a whole lot smarter than any of us (Isaiah 55:8-9).
The alternative, that God sits about wringing His hands and saying, "Oh, how I wish I could do something about this, but I'm just not powerful enough," is surely too terrible to contemplate!

 

[KenH]

So according to your Calvinist philosophy, when a person sins, God wills the sin to happen.

Man is tempted by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. (1 John 2:16)

Again, I reiterate, God is the FIRST cause of ALL things in His creation. Yet it is man who actually - physically, mentally - lusts after the flesh, lusts after the eyes, lusts after the pride of life. Therefore, I am without excuse when I sin.

 

[KenH]

If we find it hard to know how He can do that, the reason may be that He is a whole lot smarter than any of us (Isaiah 55:8-9).

As William Cowper wrote in the hymn, "God Moves In a Mysterious Way": "Judge not the Lord by feeble sense."

 

[Ascetic X]

Man is tempted by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. (1 John 2:16)

Again, I reiterate, God is the FIRST cause of ALL things in His creation. Yet it is man who actually - physically, mentally - lusts after the flesh, lusts after the eyes, lusts after the pride of life. Therefore, I am without excuse when I sin.

So you, guided by your Calvinist theories, claim that when a person sins, God is the cause of the sinning,

 

[KenH]

We are to believe God's Word, not understand the mechanics of how God sovereignly rules His creation. All I can tell anyone is that the Bible teaches that God is absolutely sovereign and that the Bible teaches that man is absolutely responsible.

 

[KenH]

So you, guided by your Calvinist theories, claim that when a person sins, God is the cause of the sinning,

God sovereignly rules His creation. Period. I am the cause of my sinning. (1 John 2:16)

Listen to William Cowper word in the hymn, "God Moves In a Mysterious Way": "Judge not the Lord by feeble sense." For one to claim that they don't understand how God sovereignly accomplishes His will, or for one to claim that they don't like the way that God sovereignly accomplishes His will, is futile on such a person's part. As James Weldon Johnson wrote, "Your arms are too short to box with God."

 

[Ascetic X]

Man is tempted by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. (1 John 2:16)

Again, I reiterate, God is the FIRST cause of ALL things in His creation. Yet it is man who actually - physically, mentally - lusts after the flesh, lusts after the eyes, lusts after the pride of life. Therefore, I am without excuse when I sin.

You cannot have two causes of sin. You say God is the cause of ALL things. Then you say sin is done by the sinner. You contradict yourself.

 

[KenH]

You cannot have two causes of sin. You say God is the cause of ALL things. Then you say sin is done by the sinner. You contradict yourself.

Let me put it to you as clearly as my feeble brain can do so:

1) God is absolutely sovereign.
2) Man is absolutely responsible.

Now, how all of the mechanics work as far as the Bible teaching that God sovereignly hardened Pharoah's heart, while at the same time Pharoah was responsible for hardening his heart, I, a feeble, frail, fallen sinner, have absolutely no capacity to explain. But I don't have to - I walk by faith, not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7). Also, as the Bible teaches, "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever." (Deuteronomy 29:29)

 

[Ascetic X]

We are to believe God's Word, not understand the mechanics of how God sovereignly rules His creation. All I can tell anyone is that the Bible teaches that God is absolutely sovereign and that the Bible teaches that man is absolutely responsible.

Where the problem exists seems to be in the definition of “sovereignty”.

Sovereign refers to the independent authority and unquestionable rulership of a king.

Historically, it never means that a king controls every atom, thought, and action happening in the kingdom. The king rules by issuing and enforcing decrees that the kingdom subjects are to obey, or they will suffer punishment. No king would issue a decree, see it violated by subjects, then claim he willed the violation to happen.

God’s hardening of pharaoh’s heart was accomplished by the miracle punishments inflicted upon pharaoh and Egypt. Pharaoh responded to these bad events by becoming more stubborn.

It cannot be affirmed that all happenings are willed by God to happen. But all happenings are under His rulership, meaning that rewards or punishments imposed by God will result from each thing that happens.

A parent may see its child copying a famous poem from a poetry book, then taking it to school to present it as their own original composition. The parent does not cause the plagiarism to happen, but merely permits it, without interfering or preventing it. The parent knows the child will be publicly humiliated by the teacher in class when the plagiarism is instantly detected.

The parent decided that letting the child’s plagiarism happen, and get punished by the teacher in front of the class, will make a better impression than if the parent interfered.

The parent’s sovereignty over the child does not mean the parent controls every movement of the child, or causes all the child’s actions.

 

[Brightfame52]

. You say God is the cause of ALL things. Then you say sin is done by the sinner. You contradict yourself.

Thats not a contradiction, its true