Born Anew?

[Van]

We till the ground, we plant the seed, we water, but God alone causes the increase: He alone calls out some from the realm of darkness into His marvelous light. So why till the ground, prepare the field, plant and water if it serves no purpose in harvesting the fields white for harvest? Do we not serve as ambassadors, awakening the lost to their dreadful situation, heading for destruction and unable to save themselves?

Yes, those fields white for harvest are spiritually dead, separated from God, just as the physically dead are separated from the physically living. But they have the opportunity to obtain access to God's grace by trusting in the name of Christ Jesus.

Does scripture say we must be born anew in order to believe, or we must believe in order to be born anew? We must believe, and have our faith credited by God has righteousness in order to be born anew by the grace of God.

​

John 1:12 NKJV​

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:​

When and if God credits the faith of a lost person as righteousness, that gives the person the "right to become" children of God.

Therefore, the opportunity for the grace of salvation is spread through the evangelism of believers. some till the ground, some plant the seed, others water, but it is God alone who causes the increase.

 

[Ascetic X]

I know of no scripture that says “get born again, then repent and believe in Jesus Christ.”

 

[Van]

I know of no scripture that says “get born again, then repent and believe in Jesus Christ.”

Neither does anyone else. Scripture must be rewritten. There is no way around John 1:12.

Similarly, the idea that "regeneration" occurs before a person has been transferred into Christ is another fictional rewrite.

​

1 Corinthians 15:22​

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive​

See also Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13

Since we were dead in our sins, we had to be spiritually born anew, regenerated, made alive by the washing of regeneration within Christ.

 

[Van]

When and if a person is born anew, they then become children of God, and therefore "sons of the resurrection." And that vague phrase, "sons of the resurrection," refers to those who will partake in the first resurrection, the resurrection of life. Naturally those heading for the second resurrection, the resurrection of judgement are NOT "sons of the resurrection."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Neither does anyone else. Scripture must be rewritten. There is no way around John 1:12.

Ah, John 1:12-13. What great verses those are for believers in Free Grace!
'But as many as received Him, to them He ave the right to become children of God, to thoswho believe in His name: who were born,
'Not of blood.......' Being born to Christian parents, or into a so-called Christian country cannot help us.
'Nor of the will of the flesh.....' Our own fallen will cannot help us.
'Nor of the will of man.....' No third party can help us. The new birth is not in the power of the preacher, the incantations of the priest, the ministrations of the social worker....
'But of God.' The New Birth is of Him and of Him alone.

I know of no scripture that says “get born again, then repent and believe in Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 2:1-7. '.... We.... were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy , because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show te exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.'
A few questions on the text:
1. Can we change our own nature? Hint: read Jer. 13:23.
2. Who is it that makes us alive when we are dead in trespasses?
3. Who has made us sit in the heavenly places?
4. Whose grace and kindness are shown forth in our salvation?
5. What mention is mde in these verses of our own part in our salvation?

 

[Van]

SNIP
A few questions on the text:
1. Can we change our own nature? Hint: read Jer. 13:23.
2. Who is it that makes us alive when we are dead in trespasses?
3. Who has made us sit in the heavenly places?
4. Whose grace and kindness are shown forth in our salvation?
5. What mention is mde in these verses of our own part in our salvation?

1) We do not need to change our nature as fallen, dead in sin, individuals. No verse says we do! Many lost people do seek the narrow door, demonstrating the fallen nature can understand and seek spiritual things. Luke 13:24.

2) God makes us alive, when we were dead in trespasses when we undergo the washing of regeneration in Christ. Ephesians 2:5

3) God, who chose to spiritually transfer us into Christ's spiritual body therefore caused those transferred to be seated in the heavenly places in Him. Ephesians 2:6

4) God's grace and kindness were provided by Christ who brought the opportunity of salvation to humanity. Titus 2:11

5) Christ appeared and brought forth the gospel of Christ. We, as fallen individuals, access the opportunity of salvation by placing our full faith, devotion and love in the name of Christ Jesus. Romans 5:1-2.

John 1:12 NKJV
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

When and if God credits the faith of a lost person as righteousness, that gives the person the "right to become" children of God.

We "receive Him" and everyone who claims we cannot receive Him until regenerated is rewriting scripture!

 

[Ascetic X]

1) We do not need to change our nature as fallen, dead in sin, individuals. No verse says we do! Many lost people do seek the narrow door, demonstrating the fallen nature can understand and seek spiritual things. Luke 13:24.


We "receive Him" and everyone who claims we cannot receive Him until regenerated is rewriting scripture!

Amen! Humans, all of them, are able to seek God.

Jeremiah 29:13

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

 

[percho]

When and if a person is born anew, they then become children of God, and therefore "sons of the resurrection." And that vague phrase, "sons of the resurrection," refers to those who will partake in the first resurrection, the resurrection of life. Naturally those heading for the second resurrection, the resurrection of judgement are NOT "sons of the resurrection."

Interesting thought. I have not considered that before.

Is there time between the first resurrection of sons and the second resurrection of non sons?

If yes, are there also people living on earth who have not gone through the change from corruptible to incorruptible, being ruled over by the sons? Can any of them become sons?

In your opinion which is the more numerous group the sons or the non sons?

 

[percho]

Amen! Humans, all of them, are able to seek God.

Jeremiah 29:13

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

With there old heart of stone or with their new heart of flesh?

 

[Dave G]

Many lost people do seek the narrow door, demonstrating the fallen nature can understand and seek spiritual things.

Van,

It demonstrates that many seek to enter in by other means than strictly by the power of God... who alone is responsible for foreknowing, predestinating, calling, justifying and glorifying anyone...but those that seek to enter in by their "good works", their "belief", their every effort apart from that process, shall not be able to;
Just as the Lord tells us here:

" Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." ( Luke 13:23-24 ).

The elect are those that are "striving" to enter in by that straight gate...
Even though they are guaranteed a seat at His table.

Salvation being of the Lord, means that it is not a "cooperative effort" on the part of God and men;
and His choice of sinners is not in any way influenced by our wishes...
It's His work, start to finish.


That is what makes it all "of grace", and not "of works ( Romans 11:5-6 ).

 

[Dave G]

Have you not read what He has told us here?

" But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." ( 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 ).

Believers have received the Spirit of God, so that they might know the things that are freely given to them by God...
Which "things" Paul speaks of in his epistles to the churches.
But the natural man ( dead in trespasses and sins ) does not welcome the things of the Spirit of God, neither can he know them...
For they are foolishness to him.

Why are they foolishness to them?
Because they are spiritually discerned, not carnally discerned.
The carnal mind, which is what all unbelievers possess, is at enmity with God ( Romans 8 ).

This is why God has to open the hearts of sinners before they can receive the truth of His words...
Breaking the stone of our hearts and minds with His own power, not depending upon our own powerlessness to affect a change in an impossible situation.

If not for that, all of us would forever remain in our natural state of willful and stubborn rejection of both Him and His words, my friend.


May God bless you.

 

[Dave G]

We till the ground, we plant the seed, we water, but God alone causes the increase: He alone calls out some from the realm of darkness into His marvelous light. So why till the ground, prepare the field, plant and water if it serves no purpose in harvesting the fields white for harvest? Do we not serve as ambassadors, awakening the lost to their dreadful situation, heading for destruction and unable to save themselves?

It is the Lord who uses men to do His will my friend...
To preach, to teach the Scriptures and to open anyone's eyes to their sinful condition.

He is, ultimately, the one who awakens someone by the power of His Spirit;
Not by the "power of persuasiveness" or anything else that we as men possess.
Our efforts mean nothing without God's power and direction.

We don't do the awakening...

He does.

 

[Dave G]

Does scripture say we must be born anew in order to believe, or we must believe in order to be born anew?

Yes it does, if one takes into account the scriptural details of how and why someone who is dead in sins actually believes God and His words.
For example, Lydia comes to mind, as does the account of Paul on his way to Damascus.

To me, John 1:11-13 is very specific...

Being born anew is not a product of anyone's will or bloodline.
It is a product of God working in a person who is completely unaware of what is transpiring:

" ....I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." ( Romans 10:20 ).

This tells me that God seeks and finds those that are not actively seeking Him, Van...
Not those that "seek" Him by their own efforts at "believing", at "obeying", or at "repenting".

We, as the sheep of His pasture, believed His words during the preaching of them ( Romans 10 )...
and it was all His doing.


Again, may God bless you sir.

 

[Van]

Interesting thought. I have not considered that before.

Is there time between the first resurrection of sons and the second resurrection of non sons?

If yes, are there also people living on earth who have not gone through the change from corruptible to incorruptible, being ruled over by the sons? Can any of them become sons?

In your opinion which is the more numerous group the sons or the non sons?

My view is based on what I was taught, I have not independently studied it. I think the first resurrection occurs when Christ raptures the church, and the second at the end of the 1000 year reign.

Yes, again, I am under the impression that people will be physically born in an unsaved state and will have the opportunity to believe. But again, I have not studied the matter. I expect to be part of the first resurrection.

 

[Van]

It is the Lord who uses men to do His will my friend...
To preach, to teach the Scriptures and to open anyone's eyes to their sinful condition.

He is, ultimately, the one who awakens someone by the power of His Spirit;
Not by the "power of persuasiveness" or anything else that we as men possess.
Our efforts mean nothing without God's power and direction.

We don't do the awakening...

He does.

We disagree, The Law leads the lost to Christ. People who witness for Christ using scripture, including the Law, lead people to Christ. This is their awakening, they become aware they are sinners and cannot do anything to save themselves.

Yes, God is the ultimate cause of everything. But not the direct cause of everything.

We possess knowledge of God, our initial sinful state as "made sinners," and our assignment to be ambassadors for Christ with the message "Be reconciled to God."

Our efforts mean everything to those we led using the gospel of Christ. How would they hear without a preacher?

We offer the opportunity to receive the gospel, but we do not determine whether or not such reception results in their faith being credited by God as righteousness.

 

[Van]

Yes it does, if one takes into account the scriptural details of how and why someone who is dead in sins actually believes God and His words.
For example, Lydia comes to mind, as does the account of Paul on his way to Damascus.

To me, John 1:11-13 is very specific...

Being born anew is not a product of anyone's will or bloodline.
It is a product of God working in a person who is completely unaware of what is transpiring:

" ....I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." ( Romans 10:20 ).

This tells me that God seeks and finds those that are not actively seeking Him, Van...
Not those that "seek" Him by their own efforts at "believing", at "obeying", or at "repenting".

We, as the sheep of His pasture, believed His words during the preaching of them ( Romans 10 )...
and it was all His doing.


Again, may God bless you sir.

Yes it does!!!!!!!!!!! It says we must believe in order to be born anew!!

You did not address as many as received Him!!!!!!!!!!!

Well it is interesting that you do not believe anyone actually is seeking God, given the many verses that teach the opposite!!!

You turn "as many as received Him" into"as many as God caused, via Irresistible Grace, to receive Him." There is nothing I can say to those who rewrite scripture to fit their false doctrine.

Did you acknowledge that since many seek the narrow door, the Calvinist doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability is false? Nope. Again, there is literally nothing I can say....

 

[Dave G]

Yes it does!!!!!!!!!!! It says we must believe in order to be born anew!!

You did not address as many as received Him!!!!!!!!!!!

It's been addressed many times over in threads such as this, Van, only it seems that you still do not see it.
Here it is again:

" He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." ( John 1:10-14 ).

 

[Dave G]

Here's what I see it saying:

10) Jesus, the Son of God ( developed from other places in His word as well as here ) from all eternity, was in the world ( His first coming ). The world, and all that is in it, was made by Him...
But "the world" ( that's us, all of mankind ) did not know who He was.

11) He came to His own...( Scripture tells us that "His own" were and are the people of Israel, as a nation ) and that His own ( Israel, as a nation ) did not welcome Him for who He is.

12) But...as many as did receive Him...
Question: According to the Scriptures, who "receives" Jesus for who He is?

Everyone?
No.
His apostles, prophets, etc., the "whoseover believeth" who were and are everyday people ( like fisherman and tent makers ) before the Lord revealed Himself to them ( see why Peter, for example, knew who the Lord Jesus was while others did not, as the Lord Himself tells him why in Matthew 16:17 ), to them He gave the power, the "right" and the authority to "become" ( resemble or come to look like ) the sons of God.

We also know from other places in the Scripture, that these are the ones, out of all mankind, who believe on His name.

13) These same individuals ( who did receive Him ), did so because they were born anew ...
Not because of bloodline, their own will or the will of other men, but of and by God.

I'll leave verse 14 alone, as to me, what's said is not in focus here.

 

[Dave G]

That said,
How is it that you still maintain that being born again is by any other person's will than that of God alone, Van?

In my mind, the truth of verse 13 should completely remove the idea that the Lord rewards anyone for believing on His Son... when this tells me, with no uncertainty, why they do.
It limits and defines who received Him, with the phrase, "....who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God", does it not?

It does to me.

So...
That means, that people reject Him ( "receive Him not" ) because they don't understand and really know who He is ( even though they should )... and it takes a miracle of God's work ( again, a revealing of that information by God Himself ) for anyone to truly come to that understanding, doesn't it?

Again ( and for the reader ),
Peter was explicitly told, by the Lord Himself, how and why he ( and the rest of the disciples standing with him ) knew who Jesus was, when others didn't:

" When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." ( Matthew 16:13-17 ).

Because according to the above, "flesh and blood" ( mere men ) did not reveal that truth to Peter, but rather God the Father chose to reveal that truth to him, and not to others.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It's been addressed many times over in threads such as this, Van, only it seems that you still do not see it.
Here it is again:

" He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." ( John 1:10-14 ).

This passage couldn’t be any clearer if John tried. Those who received Him were born (an already completed action) of God.