Can Predestination and Free Will Coexist?

[Silverhair]

I proved the irrationality of what was said. A slave has to be set free by the Master first to be able to freely trust in Him or freely do anything else.

That is what the gospel is for, the person has to freely respond in faith before they are set free from their sin.

What you have shown is that you trust man's word more than God's.

 

[Silverhair]

No it doesnt, that comes from the dark resources of mans imagination. Christ death healed them He died for 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. Healed means:

1. to cure, heal
2. to make whole
   1. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

You keep proving that you do not trust the word of God BF.

1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
1Co 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.


Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Why do you not believe the word of God.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes you are !

BF you continue to deny the clear word of God.

 

[Psalty]

I agree one has eternal life and will always keep it while they are believing. I’m talking about those who decide that they don’t want it anymore and walk away from it.

There is a seeming tension here in scripture.

On the one hand in John 10 Jesus says no one can snatch them out of his sheep out of his hands.

On the other hand, there are many passages that talk about and apostasy such as second Thessalonians 2 and Hebrews 6.

People resolve this one of two ways.
1. Jesus never lets any enemy snap us out of his hands, but this does not preclude us choosing to jump from his grasp. If you look at John 10, he is speaking about being a good Shepherd versus thieves, and robbers. No thief or robber, including Satan can snatch us out of his hands. You are eternally secure in him as long as you maintain your faith in him.

2. The second option is to think that People were never really saved in the first place. The idea is that they only appeared to be saved and appeared to fall away. To me this seems to contradict a number of scriptures, but nonetheless, this is one of the more popular views.

 

[Believeth]

That is what the gospel is for, the person has to freely respond in faith before they are set free from their sin.

What you're saying is that the slave must decide that they don't want to be a slave anymore; only then will the master comply with their wishes. That doesn't look like Grace to me.

 

[Brightfame52]

You keep proving that you do not trust the word of God BF.

Those He died for are by His stripes healed 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

You teaching against Christ

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you continue to deny the clear word of God.

Thats you, may God grant you repentance

 

[Silverhair]

What you're saying is that the slave must decide that they don't want to be a slave anymore; only then will the master comply with their wishes. That doesn't look like Grace to me.

Even the slave to sin has the ability to think. That is why we are to preach the gospel to all.

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.

And we know that the unsaved can hear and respond

Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.
Rom 10:11 It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him,
Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

[Silverhair]

Those He died for are by His stripes healed 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

You teaching against Christ

Show me where I have done that BF.

I have given to scripture that shows your view is wrong and you still make your false claims.

 

[Silverhair]

Thats you, may God grant you repentance

BF are saying I am not saved?

 

[Ascetic X]

Show me where I have done that BF.

I have given to scripture that shows your view is wrong and you still make your false claims.

2 Timothy 2:23

Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.

Proverbs 20:3

It is an honor for a man to keep aloof from strife, but every fool will be quarreling.

 

[Brightfame52]

Show me where I have done that BF.

You cant see. You said a million time Jesus death didnt save anyone. 1 Pet 2:24 declares you a false messenger

 

[Brightfame52]

BF are saying I am not saved?

I dont know what your eternal state is. I know you fight against the truth

 

[Believeth]

Even the slave to sin has the ability to think. That is why we are to preach the gospel to all.

A slave is spiritually discerned until they are set free. We preach the Gospel to all in hopes that those who have been set free will hear and embrace it.

And we know that the unsaved can hear and respond

The unsaved person can only respond by further suppressing the knowledge of the truth unless they are given ears to hear at the predetermined time.

 

[Brightfame52]

And we know that the unsaved can hear and respond

They cant hear it spiritually and their response will always be negative. Its foolishness to the lost 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Them that perish, the word perish is apollymi:

Lost/be lost

those to whom it belongs to perish or to be consigned to eternal misery, are contrasted by Paul: 1 Corinthians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 2:15; 2 Corinthians 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:10

Lost here is in the present tense, as long as theyre in a lost condition, the preaching is foolishness to them. So thats how they judge what they hear in the Gospel

 

[Ascetic X]

Proverbs 15:18

A hot-tempered man stirs up strife, but he who is slow to anger quiets contention.

 

[Van]

I'm fairly new here and have seen some recent discussion on this topic. Recently I picked up Normal Geisler's "Chosen But Free". He believed that there could be a middle ground between Calvinism and Arminianism. These are a few passages in his book.

This is not to say there are no mysteries in the Christian faith. Paul said, "Great indeed... is the mystery of godliness" (1 Tim. 3:16). But a mystery is a truth that goes beyond reason without going against reason. It is beyond our ability to comprehend, but not against our ability to apprehend. Surely the doctrines of the Trinity and of the incarnation fit into this category. We know that they are true, even if we cannot completely explain exactly how they are true. For example, we know that there are three persons and only one nature in God, but we don't fully understand how this can be so. What we do know is that it is not a contradiction; God is one in one sense (nature) and three in another sense (persons), so the law of noncontradiction is not being violated. We suggested that divine sovereignty and human freedom fall into this same category-they are a mystery. We know both are true, but we do not know exactly how they fit together. - Chosen But Free by Normal Geisler, Page 132

For the extreme sovereignty view, the ultimate question is: Who made the devil do it? Or, more precisely, who caused Lucifer to sin? If free choice is doing what one desires, and if all good desires come from God, then it follows logically that God is responsible for Lucifer's sin against God! After all, he had no evil nature to give him evil desires, and if God had given him a good desire, then Lucifer would not have rebelled. But it is contradictory to say that God ever could be against God. God is essentially good. He cannot sin (Heb. 6:18); He cannot even look with approval on sin. Habakkuk said to God: "Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong" (Hab. 1:13). James reminds us that "when tempted, no one should say, 'God is tempting me.' For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone" (James 1:13). So, if for no other reason, the strong sovereignty position must be rejected because it is contradictory, and the Bible exhorts us to "avoid contradictions" (1 Tim. 6:20). Opposites cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense. God cannot be good and not good. He cannot be for His own essential good and be against it by giving Lucifer the desire to sin against Him. In short, God cannot be for Himself and against Himself at the same time and in the same sense. - Chosen But Free by Normal Geisler, Page 33

God made only good creatures. After almost every day of Creation the Bible says, "and it was good" (Gen. 1:4, 10, 12, 18, 21, 25). And after the last day, the Bible declares, "It was very good" (1:31). Solomon added, "This only have I found: God made mankind upright..." (Eccl. 7:29). We are told explicitly that "every creature of God is good" (1 Tim. 4:4). And an absolutely good God cannot make an evil thing. Only a perfect creature can come from the hands of a perfect Creator. - Chosen But Free by Normal Geisler, Page 34

Yes, God can predestine some things and not predestine all things.

1) There is no need to accept the premise we can not understand God predestines what He declares will happen, without the need to claim God had declared everything that happens.

2) Yes, if God causes everything, then God is the author of sin, just as the Hyper-Calvinists claim. We do NOT need to accept the silly premise that God causes us to sin, and then justly punishes us for the sin He caused.

3) Something can be "good" for a purpose, such as serving as a bad example, without being intrinsically good. Creation was indeed "good" for God's purpose of choosing a people for His own possession to bring Him glory. We bring Him glory when we repent...​

 

[SovereignGrace]

So what your saying is they were set free from their sin so they could be set free from their sin.

That is an odd bit of logic there SG.

Joh 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Joh 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

The Son makes us free when we have trusted in Him.

That’s not what I’m saying my friend, but what the word of God says.

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.[Romans 8:5-8]

In this passage we see the two types of ppl in the world, the lost and saved, the regenerate and unregenerate. The lost, the unregenerate, are at enmity with (hostile towards in the NASB 1995) God. They have their minds set upon the things of the flesh and not the Spirit. In fact, these ppl, in their lost, unregenerate state, cannot please God. Why can they not please them. They are devoid of faith. And faith is what pleases God per Hebrews 11:6.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.[1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB 1995]

Here we see another example of the lost, the unregenerate being at odds with God. As the NIV says it (and I think they nailed it) The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.[1 Corinthians 2:14 NIV 2011] So clearly, Paul is saying the lost, the unregenerate, those devoid of the Holy Spirit of God, cannot, and will not seek Him, seeing they want nothing to do with Him. That is why regeneration is very key to understanding Ordo Salutis.

 

[Salty]

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