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The "D" Chart

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JD731

Well-Known Member
If what you say is true and if indeed all that God has said about a resurrection unto life of all those in history who have believed God's word and been justified by their faith then there is going to be a huge issue between God and Abraham and also God and David. He has made covenants and everlasting promises to them concerning the land of Palestine and an everlasting nation.

Rom 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Being honest with the text, What did Abraham believe that justified him? Are we told? Can we know?

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. (in other words, Sarah was too old to have children)

The point here is that one must believe in the word of God before he can believe in Jesus Christ and be saved from sin. You are believing in Jesus Christ but you are not believing the word of God when you deny what he says. This is not what Abraham did. God was speaking to men 2500 years before he wrote a single inspired word. The things he said to Abraham are some of them.

Now he is talking about saved nations.

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it (his believing God the Father) was imputed to him for righteousness.

Abraham and his experience was a snapshot in time of what God the Father was going to accomplish through Israel, the nation, and Jesus Christ, Pictured through Isaa'c the miraculous son of God. He is the promised Seed through whom all the families of the earth will be blessed. His life and experiences are prophetic.

Consider this verse:

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;


You must believe the words of the Father. If there are not nations on earth during the 7000th year of human history and then in the new heaven and the new earth, then ignoring all the promises to OT Israel will be justified and my believing they are true and sure will be proven vain.

The OT confirms the NT

There were no promises to Abraham that he would go to heaven. His promise is that he will be heir to the world.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
If what you say is true and if indeed all that God has said about a resurrection unto life of all those in history who have believed God's word and been justified by their faith then there is going to be a huge issue between God and Abraham and also God and David. He has made covenants and everlasting promises to them concerning the land of Palestine and an everlasting nation.

Rom 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Being honest with the text, What did Abraham believe that justified him? Are we told? Can we know?

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. (in other words, Sarah was too old to have children)

The point here is that one must believe in the word of God before he can believe in Jesus Christ and be saved from sin. You are believing in Jesus Christ but you are not believing the word of God when you deny what he says. This is not what Abraham did. God was speaking to men 2500 years before he wrote a single inspired word. The things he said to Abraham are some of them.

Now he is talking about saved nations.

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it (his believing God the Father) was imputed to him for righteousness.

Abraham and his experience was a snapshot in time of what God the Father was going to accomplish through Israel, the nation, and Jesus Christ, Pictured through Isaa'c the miraculous son of God. He is the promised Seed through whom all the families of the earth will be blessed. His life and experiences are prophetic.

Consider this verse:

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;


You must believe the words of the Father. If there are not nations on earth during the 7000th year of human history and then in the new heaven and the new earth, then ignoring all the promises to OT Israel will be justified and my believing they are true and sure will be proven vain.

The OT confirms the NT

There were no promises to Abraham that he would go to heaven. His promise is that he will be heir to the world.

Van and I were discussing Abraham's justification some time back, he was rightly saying there are several theories as to exactly how Abraham was justified. I have only one theory in how he was justified.

Somehow in a dream or a vision or maybe straight out verbally, Abraham was made aware of the coming of the Messiah and I believe he was justified by Grace through faith in believing in the coming Messiah.

Christ Himself revealed to us that Abraham knew Him when He was having his usual arguments with the Jews.

John 8:56

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Van and I were discussing Abraham's justification some time back, he was rightly saying there are several theories as to exactly how Abraham was justified. I have only one theory in how he was justified.

Somehow in a dream or a vision or maybe straight out verbally, Abraham was made aware of the coming of the Messiah and I believe he was justified by Grace through faith in believing in the coming Messiah.

Christ Himself revealed to us that Abraham knew Him when He was having his usual arguments with the Jews.

John 8:56

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

I believe that Abraham "rejoiced" through whatever means, that his redemption would be fulfilled by the promise of God in sending the Messiah.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
I believe that Abraham "rejoiced" through whatever means, that his redemption would be fulfilled by the promise of God in sending the Messiah.

I also believe this is explains the misunderstanding by many when James said that Abraham was justified by works through offering his son (would be offering).

Abraham was justified by grace through faith alone, James is showing us that Abraham's works proved he was justified. James is showing us how faith and works work together, no that faith + works = justification.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
I also believe this is explains the misunderstanding by many when James said that Abraham was justified by works through offering his son (would be offering).

Abraham was justified by grace through faith alone, James is showing us that Abraham's works proved he was justified. James is showing us how faith and works work together, no that faith + works = justification.
Abraham gave proof to his professing faith, as he trusted Yahweh enough to believe that he could even raise back up his son of the promise
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Reasons I am not post trib (in addition to exegesis), because it makes no sense to me because:
1. It has Jesus making two trips, one after the other: coming down for the rapture, then coming for the 2nd coming. Human nature does not allow for that unless someone forgets something the first time. Oh, and then after taking us to Heaven in the Rapture, He immediately takes us back down to Earth where we will reign with Him. What's the point of that??
2. It has the church, the bride of Christ, going through the worst time in the history of the earth. When I got married, our car battery gave out on our honeymoon, and my wife had to push the car since she couldn't pop the clutch (4 on the floor Manta). She's never let me forget it! So if the church is the bride of Christ, she shouldn't have to go through the tribulation!!
3. What is the theological reason for a post-trib rapture? I can't think of any.
 
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Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Reasons I am not post trib (in addition to exegesis), because it makes no sense to me because:
1. It has Jesus making two trips, one after the other: coming down for the rapture, then coming for the 2nd coming.
2. It has the church, the bride of Christ, going through the worst time in the history of the earth. When I got married, our car battery gave out on our honeymoon, and my wife had to push the car since she couldn't pop the clutch (4 on the floor Manta). She's never let me forget it! So if the church is the bride of Christ, she shouldn't have to go through the tribulation!!
3. What is the theological reason for a post-trib rapture? I can't think of any.

That's just it, there is none.

A mid-trib has possibilities but I believe falls short, but the post-trib, nope.

The biggest problem with it is that it promotes the wrath of God on the Church contrary to verses that say just the opposite.

The mid-trib does at least make a huge cut in that wrath of God on the Church.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
.
3. What is the theological reason for a post-trib rapture? I can't think of any.
1. There is only one second appearing. Hebrews 9:28. Titus 2:13. 1 John 3:2. 1 Corinthians 15:52.

2. The resurrection precedes the rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

3. The first resurrectipn is understood to be after the tribulation. Per Revelation 20:4.

4. The resurrection occurs in the last day. John 6:39-54.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
That's just it, there is none.

A mid-trib has possibilities but I believe falls short, but the post-trib, nope.

The biggest problem with it is that it promotes the wrath of God on the Church contrary to verses that say just the opposite.

The mid-trib does at least make a huge cut in that wrath of God on the Church.

@37818

There is the first resurrection that takes place in Rev. 20 at the return of Christ, and "the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were expired."

These that were raised up are the tribulation saints and they will reign with Christ 1000 years. We know this because it says they did not receive the mark of the beast.

But what about the dead in Christ all the way back to Adam, where are they? And who are the "rest of the dead that lived not again until the 1000 years were expired?

The rest of the dead cannot be the saints from before the tribulation back to Adam, they will also reign with Christ for a 1000 years.

So here's how the pre-trib works.

Before the tribulation starts the Rapture occurs as Paul said in 2 Thes., all the saints from that time all the way back to Adam will meet the Lord in the air and are taken to heaven with glorified bodies.

The 7 year tribulation begins and the anti-christ begins his bid for the world. At the very end of the tribulation the anti-christ turns on Israel and is destroying them when the Lord returns to save Israel and destroys the anti-christ and his armies.

The saints that were previously Raptured come with Christ as Zechariah said, "He will come, and all the saints with Him."

The tribulation saint's are raised up per Rev. 20 and they along with the previous Raptured saints will rule with Christ for 1000 years.

During this time of 1000 years, "the rest of the dead that lived not again until the 1000 years were finished" are all the lost from all time, they have not been resurrected and are still in Hell.

The 1000 years end with the lost in Hell raised up and judged per Rev. 20:11-15/ The Great White Throne of Judgment, and are cast in the Lake of Fire.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
.
1. There is only one second appearing. Hebrews 9:28. Titus 2:13. 1 John 3:2. 1 Corinthians 15:52.
So you don't believe in a rapture? But in 1 Thess. 4:17 we are "caught up" to Christ in the clouds. And in Acts 1:11 Jesus will come in the clouds. this is quite different language than that used for the second coming of Christ.
2. The resurrection precedes the rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4:15.
This is confusing. You have said there is "only one second appearing." But now you apparently believe there is a rapture. But you have not answered my very real objections 1 & 2. Why would Jesus make two trips? Why would He catch us up only to deposit us again on the earth?
3. The first resurrectipn is understood to be after the tribulation. Per Revelation 20:4.
Not by me. You need to prove this, not assume victory without discussion.
4. The resurrection occurs in the last day. John 6:39-54.
So what is "the last day"? Do you have a theological description of that?
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
So you don't believe in a rapture? But in 1 Thess. 4:17 we are "caught up" to Christ in the clouds. And in Acts 1:11 Jesus will come in the clouds. this is quite different language than that used for the second coming of Christ.

This is confusing. You have said there is "only one second appearing." But now you apparently believe there is a rapture. But you have not answered my very real objections 1 & 2. Why would Jesus make two trips? Why would He catch us up only to deposit us again on the earth?

Not by me. You need to prove this, not assume victory without discussion.

So what is "the last day"? Do you have a theological description of that?

@37818

If you will just drop my last post for now and follow through with John and answer the questions the best you can, you're going to see things a new way. I guarantee it.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
.
But what about the dead in Christ all the way back to Adam, where are they? And who are the "rest of the dead that lived not again until the 1000 years were expired?
I am of the persuasion all of God's elect have part in the first resurrectipn of the last day. This is post- trib pre-wrath.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Reasons I am not post trib (in addition to exegesis), because it makes no sense to me because:
1. It has Jesus making two trips, one after the other: coming down for the rapture, then coming for the 2nd coming. Human nature does not allow for that unless someone forgets something the first time. Oh, and then after taking us to Heaven in the Rapture, He immediately takes us back down to Earth where we will reign with Him. What's the point of that??
2. It has the church, the bride of Christ, going through the worst time in the history of the earth. When I got married, our car battery gave out on our honeymoon, and my wife had to push the car since she couldn't pop the clutch (4 on the floor Manta). She's never let me forget it! So if the church is the bride of Christ, she shouldn't have to go through the tribulation!!
3. What is the theological reason for a post-trib rapture? I can't think of any.
We would tend to see it as Church like Israel was under the 10 Plagues in Egypt, those who were saved were divinely protected and kept by God, and we will not suffer the wrath of God as in the GWT event
Also, the same words and phrases for Rapture seem to be same as for Second Coming event also
 
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