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Born Anew?

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Particular Baptists of yesteryear who warned against these 'regeneration before faith' & 'born again before faith' & etc. contrivances:

Charles Spurgeon, "The Warrant of Faith"

"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is already saved! It is unnecessary and ridiculous for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved, when he is saved already, being regenerate!"


Abraham Booth, "Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners":

"the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ....To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other---Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine."


The 1689 London Baptist Assembly

"none can be said to be actually reconciled, justified, or adopted, until they are really implanted into Jesus Christ by faith; and so by virtue of this their union with him, have these fundamental benefits actually conveyed unto them. And this, we conceive, is fully evidenced, because the scripture attributes all these benefits to faith as the instrumental cause of them, Rom. iii. 25. v. 1, 11. Gal. iii. 26. And gives such representation of the state of the elect before faith, as is altogether inconsistent with an actual right in them. Eph. ii. 1, 2, 3, 12."
Spurgeon et al believed what (almost?) all Calvinists believe: that the Gospel must be preached to all, in the hope and expectation that God will open the hearts of His people to receive the words spoken to them (Acts 13:48; 16:14).
The idea that the Gospel should be preached only to the elect is plainly crackers, but no more so that hoping that those dead in trespasses will somehow make themselves alive.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Spurgeon et al believed what (almost?) all Calvinists believe: that the Gospel must be preached to all, in the hope and expectation that God will open the hearts of His people to receive the words spoken to them (Acts 13:48; 16:14).
The idea that the Gospel should be preached only to the elect is plainly crackers, but no more so that hoping that those dead in trespasses will somehow make themselves alive.

Does God make the decree of whose heart will be opened from the hearing of the Gospel, or is that responsibility left to man to make his own choice as to whether he will accept it or not?

God formed planned and initiated salvation for man without any help from man. Is man saving himself by saying yes, Lord I believe?
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Does God make the decree of whose heart will be opened from the hearing of the Gospel, or is that responsibility left to man to make his own choice as to whether he will accept it or not?
Both of those. The inability of man is not organic, but moral. To explain this, if a person had to walk on the ceiling in order to be saved, that would clearly be unfair. Mankind is simply not physically constituted to walk on the ceiling. But man's inability is not organic or constitutional, but moral. 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men preferred darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil.' People will not come to Christ (John 5:40), not because God prevents them - quite the opposite - but because they want to do their own thing the way they want to. Read Jeremiah 42:1 - 43:7.

In the face of this, God has chosen a vast crowd of people (Rev. 7:9), given them to the Lord Jesus to redeem (John 6:39 etc.) at a terrible cost, and to the Holy Spirit tp lead to salvation (Gal. 4:6 etc.) and seal to the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13-14).
God formed planned and initiated salvation for man without any help from man. Is man saving himself by saying yes, Lord I believe?
No, because salvation belongs to the Lord (Jonah 2:9: Rev. 7:10) - all of it from start to finish, and that is true of our repentance and faith as much as anything else (Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29; Acts 11:18; 13:48; 28:28).

Now, Charlie, I know that we don't agree on this, but I don't believe that Arminianism vs Calvinism is a matter of salvation. In 1938, a chap called George Campbell Morgan was the minister at Westminster Chapel in London. Knowing that he was coming to the end of his ministry, he looked for a man to follow him who would continue his faithful Bible ministry. He set his sights on Martyn Lloyd-Jones and eventually brough him to the Chapel to be his co-pastor. Now Campbell Morgan was an Arminian and Lloyd-Jones was a Calvinist, but according to Lloyd-Jones' biography, the two men got on together extremely well until Campbell Morgan retired after a few years.

I will defend my position, but I really don't believe there should be the amount of animosity that there is about this subject on the B.B.. Pelagianism vs. Hyper-Calvinism might be another matter, of course. :Cool
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
I’m not worried. I believe the scripture, you do violence to it. Maybe he’ll excuse you on account of your CDS.

That's good that you're not worried about it.

The Lord want's us to confirm what we believe with Him.

He doesn't want us in agony over what's to come.
 
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Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Both of those. The inability of man is not organic, but moral. To explain this, if a person had to walk on the ceiling in order to be saved, that would clearly be unfair. Mankind is simply not physically constituted to walk on the ceiling. But man's inability is not organic or constitutional, but moral. 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men preferred darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil.' People will not come to Christ (John 5:40), not because God prevents them - quite the opposite - but because they want to do their own thing the way they want to. Read Jeremiah 42:1 - 43:7.

In the face of this, God has chosen a vast crowd of people (Rev. 7:9), given them to the Lord Jesus to redeem (John 6:39 etc.) at a terrible cost, and to the Holy Spirit tp lead to salvation (Gal. 4:6 etc.) and seal to the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13-14).

No, because salvation belongs to the Lord (Jonah 2:9: Rev. 7:10) - all of it from start to finish, and that is true of our repentance and faith as much as anything else (Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29; Acts 11:18; 13:48; 28:28).

Now, Charlie, I know that we don't agree on this, but I don't believe that Arminianism vs Calvinism is a matter of salvation. In 1938, a chap called George Campbell Morgan was the minister at Westminster Chapel in London. Knowing that he was coming to the end of his ministry, he looked for a man to follow him who would continue his faithful Bible ministry. He set his sights on Martyn Lloyd-Jones and eventually brough him to the Chapel to be his co-pastor. Now Campbell Morgan was an Arminian and Lloyd-Jones was a Calvinist, but according to Lloyd-Jones' biography, the two men got on together extremely well until Campbell Morgan retired after a few years.

I will defend my position, but I really don't believe there should be the amount of animosity that there is about this subject on the B.B.. Pelagianism vs. Hyper-Calvinism might be another matter, of course. :Cool

I agree it's not a matter of salvation.

What disgusts me is the conclusion of the 5 points that Calvin taught, and many others have added to.

Calvin taught double predestination, that is the basis of the 5 points.

If God chose a certain elect, by default He has chosen for some to perish in Hell when He could have chosen them as the elect but chose not to.

Second, another conclusion to the 5 points is OSAS. It's wrong and comes from the teaching of Calvin in his 5 points.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
I agree it's not a matter of salvation.

What disgusts me is the conclusion of the 5 points that Calvin taught, and many others have added to.

Calvin taught double predestination, that is the basis of the 5 points.

If God chose a certain elect, by default He has chosen for some to perish in Hell when He could have chosen them as the elect but chose not to.

Second, another conclusion to the 5 points is OSAS. It's wrong and comes from the teaching of Calvin in his 5 points.

What I'm saying Martin, is that the predestination taught by Sovereign Grace (double predestination) is a direct assault on the character of God.

I don't like it, and I get upset and angry when it crosses my mind.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
What I'm saying Martin, is that the predestination taught by Sovereign Grace (double predestination) is a direct assault on the character of God.

I don't like it, and I get upset and angry when it crosses my mind.

@Martin Marprelate

Think about it! If God denied Moses the physical entrance into the Promised Land and gave him death for not giving the Lord the glory for providing the water in wilderness, how does He feel about one believing God has sent untold numbers to Hell and would not open their hearts as He supposedly did with others, simply because He chose not to do it?
 
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