Real Angels

[Ben1445]

Yes the Father knows before we ask sure, but this doesn’t mean we can’t ask angels and saints to pray for us or help us.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun

We supplicate people on earth and the communion of saints and the angels.

As long as your “we” doesn’t include me, I don’t disagree with your statement.

You can say the Lord’s Prayer and ask the protection of the Angels. Both.

You can mock, but this is the tool of the dark.

I’m not mocking prayer. I’m in earnest.
I may look at your health and wealth smorgasbord sounding restaurant illustration sideways but I’m still in earnest.

Galatians 1:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Legalism is blind, it argued with God Himself.

Yours is not true liberty but blindness to what Scripture teaches. Prayers to the dead are not worth anything. You have yet to offer any evidence that we are told to supplicate angels.
Asking help of our fellow man is a common occurrence. We know the importunity of the friend at midnight. But the teaching compared to it had nothing to do with angels.

No scripture is good enough for the legalist, but you went a step further and changed the text yourself.

I haven’t changed any text. I have given you copy and paste quotes. If you are the legalist that may explain why no Scripture is good enough for you to use.

I know we don’t use the same translations. I have asked you to provide your Scripture.
You don’t seem to have any.

The textual experts were accusing God incarnate of what shall not be done.

Have you provided scripture saying why Angels and Saints can not be asked for help.

See above for the dead.
You lack any evidence that we are instructed by word or example to request of angels.
As I remember, Zachariah asked for some help from an angel for confirmation. He was scolded and judged for his lack of belief in in the message given to him. Wouldn’t your helpful angel doing your bidding be a bit more obliging?
You have no authority to do it based upon the lack of command to not petition angels. Shall I begin to ask the rocks to meet my needs? It is not prohibited if I do not worship them.
You put more focus on the creation instead of the Creator, and that is the tool of the dark.

 

[Cathode]

As long as your “we” doesn’t include me, I don’t disagree with your statement.


I’m not mocking prayer. I’m in earnest.
I may look at your health and wealth smorgasbord sounding restaurant illustration sideways but I’m still in earnest.

Galatians 1:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

My point was I tell the waitress what I want because she is sent to serve me and take my orders.
Ham and cheese on rye, and a root beer. And could you wipe this table down a bit.

The angels are serving spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation.

You aren’t following scripture.

You are like the guy that comes in and ignores the waitress staff, saying “ I’ll only communicate with and give my order to the owner “.

‘We got a live one ‘

See any spiritual pathology here.

I gave you the perfect scripture that demonstrates the point.

You are ignoring it.

“ Are not all Angels ministering spirits sent forth to serve those who will inherit salvation?” Yes they are for Catholics.

Not for you apparently, it’s not even your reality you see great danger in worshipping the waitress sent to serve you.

Yours is not true liberty but blindness to what Scripture teaches. Prayers to the dead are not worth anything. You have yet to offer any evidence that we are told to supplicate angels.
Asking help of our fellow man is a common occurrence. We know the importunity of the friend at midnight. But the teaching compared to it had nothing to do with angels.

You are ignoring the scripture given you, you have marker penned it out.

I haven’t changed any text. I have given you copy and paste quotes. If you are the legalist that may explain why no Scripture is good enough for you to use.

I know we don’t use the same translations. I have asked you to provide your Scripture.
You don’t seem to have any.

See above for the dead.
You lack any evidence that we are instructed by word or example to request of angels.

They are sent forth to serve those who will inherit salvation.

As I remember, Zachariah asked for some help from an angel for confirmation. He was scolded and judged for his lack of belief in in the message given to him. Wouldn’t your helpful angel doing your bidding be a bit more obliging?
You have no authority to do it based upon the lack of command to not petition angels. Shall I begin to ask the rocks to meet my needs? It is not prohibited if I do not worship them.
You put more focus on the creation instead of the Creator, and that is the tool of the dark.

Under the Old Covenant yes, angels were to be feared somewhat, they treated unredeemed man differently.
But in the New Covenant man has a new dignity as joint Heirs with Christ in the Kingdom, we are a new creature.

In the Old Covenant angels were sent forth to command.
In the New Covenant the angels are sent forth to serve those who will inherit salvation.

 

[Ben1445]

My point was I tell the waitress what I want because she is sent to serve me and take my orders.
Ham and cheese on rye, and a root beer. And could you wipe this table down a bit.

Because if you ask God to remove the crumbs from the table, you are afraid that He will say, “My grace is sufficient for thee”?

The angels are serving spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation.

Agreed. But since we have not the authority to send them and are not the persons who sent them, our authority is limited until what time we inherit.

You aren’t following scripture.

You say that often and never provide the Scripture. You are a well without water.

You are like the guy that comes in and ignores the waitress staff, saying “ I’ll only communicate with and give my order to the owner “.

That is what the owner wants us to do.
Matthew 7:7-11
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

‘We got a live one ‘

See any spiritual pathology here.

I gave you the perfect scripture that demonstrates the point.

You are ignoring it.

“ Are not all Angels ministering spirits sent forth to serve those who will inherit salvation?” Yes they are for Catholics.

That does not show that they are under our orders.
If someone pays someone to wash my car, they are sent to serve me. That doesn’t mean I can expect them to wash my house on the same dime. They don’t work for me even though the work they are doing is for me.

Not for you apparently, it’s not even your reality you see great danger in worshipping the waitress sent to serve you.

WOW!
Angels are the messengers of God. People are on the same level as we are.
We are made lower than angels.
We are not yet made like Christ and elevated above angels.

You are ignoring the scripture given you, you have marker penned it out.

Not at all. I agree with that Scripture, but you add a meaning into it that is not there.

They are sent forth to serve those who will inherit salvation.

They are not the messenger of the Lord any longer? Just your personal butler?

Under the Old Covenant yes, angels were to be feared somewhat, they treated unredeemed man differently.
But in the New Covenant man has a new dignity as joint Heirs with Christ in the Kingdom, we are a new creature.

The new covenant makes no mention of angels. It discusses our relationship with God, which you ignore for a relationship with angels.

In the Old Covenant angels were sent forth to command.
In the New Covenant the angels are sent forth to serve those who will inherit salvation.

But you are not the Person doing the sending.

 

[Cathode]

Because if you ask God to remove the crumbs from the table, you are afraid that He will say, “My grace is sufficient for thee”?


Agreed. But since we have not the authority to send them and are not the persons who sent them, our authority is limited until what time we inherit.


You say that often and never provide the Scripture. You are a well without water.



That is what the owner wants us to do.
Matthew 7:7-11
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


That does not show that they are under our orders.
If someone pays someone to wash my car, they are sent to serve me. That doesn’t mean I can expect them to wash my house on the same dime. They don’t work for me even though the work they are doing is for me.


WOW!
Angels are the messengers of God. People are on the same level as we are.
We are made lower than angels.
We are not yet made like Christ and elevated above angels.



Not at all. I agree with that Scripture, but you add a meaning into it that is not there.


They are not the messenger of the Lord any longer? Just your personal butler?


The new covenant makes no mention of angels. It discusses our relationship with God, which you ignore for a relationship with angels.


But you are not the Person doing the sending.

This is legalist quibbling.

We have subordinate authority to ask service from the Angels.

The waiter is still paid by the owner who is the ultimate boss, but those to whom the waiter is to serve have subordinated authority to use the waiter to serve them as they ask.

You are the one making exclusive claims that only the owner must serve you.
Scripture proves that idea false.

God sent forth the angels to serve those who will inherit salvation.

The reason your nose is out of joint is you don’t use the angels service as a scriptural practice.
It’s all news to you, this passage of scripture is alien to your theology, it just doesn’t fit.

The passage fits perfectly with Catholics, we use the angels to serve us all the time.

This doesn’t mean we don’t ask God directly for things, we do that, but we don’t have to exclude the angels He sent forth to serve us.

Notice the passage doesn’t make any sense in your theology.

 

[Ben1445]

The passage fits perfectly with Catholics

Enough said.

 

[easternstar]

I don't understand the acrimony in this thread. We all agree that we shouldn't worship angels. So why all the harshness over whether we can ask them for help or not? I realize their is disagreement on that, but I don't understand the acrimony over it.

 

[Ben1445]

I don't understand the acrimony in this thread. We all agree that we shouldn't worship angels. So why all the harshness over whether we can ask them for help or not? I realize their is disagreement on that, but I don't understand the acrimony over it.

No bitterness in it. But there are several things that I would not have any idea how to explain to people are not biblical since the Bible given on these is not good enough. I do enjoy a bit of good conversation. There is nothing that keeps conversation going like different views.
Some things that are especially Catholic though not exclusively are…
Praying to dead people.
Praying to angels.
Eating Jesus.
Drinking Jesus blood.

There are more but the point is just that these are mostly Catholic held beliefs and there doesn’t seem to be any way to come to agreement on them. When the Catholic Church tells folks they must believe a certain thing, it’s really difficult to help them see anything else unless they are offended by the church. If they have been driven away from it in some way by the Catholic Church itself, they are willing to have a more open mind on these things.
But I do know some Catholics who don’t believe that they are literally eating Jesus and drinking His blood.
There are no two people who see everything eye to eye.

 

[easternstar]

No bitterness in it. But there are several things that I would not have any idea how to explain to people are not biblical since the Bible given on these is not good enough. I do enjoy a bit of good conversation. There is nothing that keeps conversation going like different views.
Some things that are especially Catholic though not exclusively are…
Praying to dead people.
Praying to angels.
Eating Jesus.
Drinking Jesus blood.

There are more but the point is just that these are mostly Catholic held beliefs and there doesn’t seem to be any way to come to agreement on them. When the Catholic Church tells folks they must believe a certain thing, it’s really difficult to help them see anything else unless they are offended by the church. If they have been driven away from it in some way by the Catholic Church itself, they are willing to have a more open mind on these things.
But I do know some Catholics who don’t believe that they are literally eating Jesus and drinking His blood.
There are no two people who see everything eye to eye.

Tha Anglican Communion has prayers for the departed in their Book of Common Prayer, but not prayers to the dead. And they don't pray for the dead in the sense of praying them out of purgatory.

 

[Ben1445]

Tha Anglican Communion has prayers for the departed in their Book of Common Prayer, but not prayers to the dead. And they don't pray for the dead in the sense of praying them out of purgatory.

Cathode has suggested asking favors of the dead saints, which is not uncommon.

But again, Catholics have not got the corner of the market for mistaken teachings. The Anglican split was a sort of political movement and a copy paste sort of scenario. There are Baptists who teach some weird ideas also.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

You lack any evidence that we are instructed by word or example to request of angels.

...the bottom line.

 

[Salty]

Six hour waring This thread will be closed no sooner than 1200 GMT / 7 AM EDT / 4 am PDT

 

[easternstar]

...the bottom line.

But where are we forbidden to do so?