Who created?

[OLD SARGE]

God created the patriarchy. The devil created the matriarchy.

 

[Van]

There is no difference in Christ between male and female. Thus your classifications do not exist in the New Creation.

 

[Ben1445]

There is no difference in Christ between male and female. Thus your classifications do not exist in the New Creation.

But there certainly is a difference in the here and now.
The implications of the statement are real.

 

[OLD SARGE]

At the Cross and before the throne there are no differences or groups. In this life, Paul clearly laid out several chains of command or organizational groupings. We all have roles.

God

Man Angels Demons

Woman

Children

In business

Boss Should be Men only. Proverbs 31 can have cottage industries, buy real estate, but not bosses.
Worker

Government

Kings/Rulers Men Only
Citizens

Church

Pastors/Elders Men only
Deacons Men Only
Members

Military is definitely a rank organization that should be made up of only males. Once read where at any given time 1/3 of sailors are non-deployable due to pregnancy. Female captives will suffer far worse than males. It's all fun and games until you are a POW. 5'4" female, 130 lbs will not be able to drag or fireman carry a 6' 2", 180 lb male to safety if wounded.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I'm the only female here and have been for a long time.

When I joined in 2002 and for a while there were lots of women. Grounded in the Bible and wonderfully versed and good, fine Christians. They ain't been here in a very long time.

Have ya'll ever wondered why? Probably not.

I have a lot to say, but I'll just narrow it down to this. It's not what you guys say, well sometimes it IS!, but generally it's HOW you say it. The disdain and notions that you as males are superior in every way just oozes from your words sometimes.

Here's my counsel. Take it to the Men's Private Forum.

I'm about to tell you all something that I was going to take to my grave.

Although I consider myself not a moderator anymore, because no one left here can erase my moderator powers, I still have them.

Moderators can go into any forum they choose. I have always avoided the Men's Private Forum. When I click on a new thread to read, I never look at what forum I am in. It just never occurs to me. A month ago or there abouts, I clicked on a new thread and I saw running gags about women. You know....how dumb we are, how bossy we are. Then I realized I was in the Men's only forum.

It surprised me. It shouldn't have. Anyway....if you have an ax to grind about women, take it there.

I am the only woman left here. I'd like to stay. I've tried other Christian forums, but many allow too many progressives and others have far too many people who don't have a CLUE what they are talking about. And there are some here, but not as many as elsewhere.

Or, at least be more descriptive in your thread titles and give me a heads up and I won't read.

 

[OLD SARGE]

No axe to grind with women as a whole only the ones who hate men and try to twist Scripture to promote their Feminist agenda. And if you are the only woman and can view any post does it really matter what forum it is in. I was only responding to Van and affirming Ben.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I have some questions about your post #4, but I will leave it be.

 

[Van]

But there certainly is a difference in the here and now.
The implications of the statement are real.

We all can find "implications" is scripture, the issue is were they actually implied or did we just make agenda driven inferences?

 

[Mikoo]

I have some questions about your post #4, but I will leave it be.

I'd like to hear them

 

[Scarlett O.]

I'd like to hear them

I was just wondering if the OP believed that Biblically speaking, a woman should not be a president of a bank, a principal of a high school, or dentist.

This is the only one I will ask.

 

[Charlie24]

I was just wondering if the OP believed that Biblically speaking, a woman should not be a president of a bank, a principal of a high school, or dentist.

This is the only one I will ask.

I think women have already proven they can excel in those positions.

I don't agree that women should have a mos that places them on the battlefield in any way.

But I do see them doing very well in military administrative service but no combat role the way it was during WW2.

 

[Mikoo]

I was just wondering if the OP believed that Biblically speaking, a woman should not be a president of a bank, a principal of a high school, or dentist.

This is the only one I will ask.

Good question. I'd like to hear OLD SARGEs response.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I think women have already proven they can excel in those positions.

I don't agree that women should have a mos that places them on the battlefield in any way.

But I do see them doing very well in military administrative service but no combat role the way it was during WW2.

I'm just trying to get some clarification from the OP as he said in his post #4 that women in the business world should never be a boss.

 

[Ben1445]

We all can find "implications" is scripture, the issue is were they actually implied or did we just make agenda driven inferences?

I don’t have an agenda. I’m from the freedom lovin’ Bible totin’ ‘Merica!
I would expect folks from Californication to not know the difference between a man and woman!

All kidding aside,(I sure hope I was kidding)
My point is that we still live in the present world and there are still differences between men and women in this world. Not recognizing that difference leads to a multitude of sins and doctrinal errors some of which are listed in Romans chapter one.
There are also other problems that Paul mentions elsewhere when he mentions that women shouldn’t be suffered/allowed to teach in the assembly. Paul didn’t say let anyone teach, and he should have been plenty familiar with there not being any difference, since he is the one that is quoted for saying it. I would be interested to hear your harmony of the following texts in light of the topic.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

 

[Van]

I don’t have an agenda. I’m from the freedom lovin’ Bible totin’ ‘Merica!
I would expect folks from Californication to not know the difference between a man and woman!

All kidding aside,(I sure hope I was kidding)
My point is that we still live in the present world and there are still differences between men and women in this world. Not recognizing that difference leads to a multitude of sins and doctrinal errors some of which are listed in Romans chapter one.
There are also other problems that Paul mentions elsewhere when he mentions that women shouldn’t be suffered/allowed to teach in the assembly. Paul didn’t say let anyone teach, and he should have been plenty familiar with there not being any difference, since he is the one that is quoted for saying it. I would be interested to hear your harmony of the following texts in light of the topic.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

The bible says that once in Christ, there is NO difference between men and women. You dismiss this foundational truth with "there are still differences between men and women in this world."

I did not see where you made any effort to reconcile, that everyone should not "usurp authority" over another person with there being no difference if a man or a woman is the usurper.

You say we should not let any woman teach, but scripture provides examples where woman teach. OTOH, we should not let ignorant, untrained and untaught people, male or female teach.

Yes, in this world, scripture teaches men and women do NOT have all the same duties, but should devote themselves to some duties for which they are biologically suited. I think exercising authority over the husband in marriage or exercising authority over the flock within a church, should be a male providence.

 

[Ben1445]

The bible says that once in Christ, there is NO difference between men and women. You dismiss this foundational truth with "there are still differences between men and women in this world."

I have not dismissed anything.

I did not see where you made any effort to reconcile, that everyone should not "usurp authority" over another person with there being no difference if a man or a woman is the usurper.

I don’t have any trouble with them because I recognize the difference between men and women. I know what a woman is.

You said there is no difference. So I asked you to explain it.

You say we should not let any woman teach, but scripture provides examples where woman teach.

Where in the church (assembly) are the women the teachers, authority over the men?

OTOH, we should not let ignorant, untrained and untaught people, male or female teach.

Agreed. But that is off topic. It is avoiding the issue. I’m not saying that you should not have said it. It is just equivalent to saying the rain is wet.

Yes, in this world, scripture teaches men and women do NOT have all the same duties, but should devote themselves to some duties for which they are biologically suited.

Make up your mind. This is all that I was saying.

I think exercising authority over the husband in marriage or exercising authority over the flock within a church, should be a male providence.

But to play devils advocate, did you not just say that there is no difference between men and women? If they are all in Christ, how can you say that the men should have the authority if there are no men?

I don’t understand what your purpose was in addressing the OP with your doubtful disputations.
Please explain that.

 

[Van]

I have not dismissed anything.


I don’t have any trouble with them because I recognize the difference between men and women. I know what a woman is.

You said there is no difference. So I asked you to explain it.


Where in the church (assembly) are the women the teachers, authority over the men?

Agreed. But that is off topic. It is avoiding the issue. I’m not saying that you should not have said it. It is just equivalent to saying the rain is wet.


Make up your mind. This is all that I was saying.


But to play devils advocate, did you not just say that there is no difference between men and women? If they are all in Christ, how can you say that the men should have the authority if there are no men?

I don’t understand what your purpose was in addressing the OP with your doubtful disputations.
Please explain that.

1) Yes you dismissed the truth that their is no difference in Christ, claiming there is difference.

2) There is NO difference in a man usurping authority and a women usurping authority.

3) Did I say women should exercise authority over men in church? Nope so why ask me to support your strawman argument.

4) You seem to be technically correct about examples where women directly taught men from the pulpit or classroom, but we should not ignore the examples where women taught men who then taught in assembly. Timothy for example. Or Apollos.

5) And lets not forget the Samaritan Women who provided a measure of Evangelistic outreach to her community.

 

[Ben1445]

1) Yes you dismissed the truth that their is no difference in Christ, claiming there is difference.

I have not dismissed it. Your first post in the thread doesn’t appear to be in context with the thread, from your own following posts.

2) There is NO difference in a man usurping authority and a women usurping authority.

But it is impossible for a man to usurp the authority over a man as described in the scenario of a woman usurping the authority over the man. So I don’t see what your disagreement is, especially after your previous post.

3) Did I say women should exercise authority over men in church? Nope so why ask me to support your strawman argument.

You said there is no difference. But Paul clearly taught a difference in practice based upon that difference.

The real issue is that you took an “in Christ” and eternity argument and applied it to the OP which has implications in the world we live in, in the here and now.

4) You seem to be technically correct about examples where women directly taught men from the pulpit or classroom, but we should not ignore the examples where women taught men who then taught in assembly. Timothy for example. Or Apollos.

Believe it or not, I have a mother too, lots of female Sunday school teachers.
Children are not men with authority on their heads.

5) And lets not forget the Samaritan Women who provided a measure of Evangelistic outreach to her community.

True again but this is not the assembly as mentioned above. And it is not a position of authority as suggested by the term matriarch

But what all that has to do with the OP is something that I still don’t understand.
Could you please elaborate on your first post in the thread as it relates to the OP.
That would help me understand what you are driving at much more than the sidetrack we are currently on.

 

[Van]

I have not dismissed it. Your first post in the thread doesn’t appear to be in context with the thread, from your own following posts.


But it is impossible for a man to usurp the authority over a man as described in the scenario of a woman usurping the authority over the man. So I don’t see what your disagreement is, especially after your previous post.


You said there is no difference. But Paul clearly taught a difference in practice based upon that difference.

The real issue is that you took an “in Christ” and eternity argument and applied it to the OP which has implications in the world we live in, in the here and now.


Believe it or not, I have a mother too, lots of female Sunday school teachers.
Children are not men with authority on their heads.

True again but this is not the assembly as mentioned above. And it is not a position of authority as suggested by the term matriarch

But what all that has to do with the OP is something that I still don’t understand.
Could you please elaborate on your first post in the thread as it relates to the OP.
That would help me understand what you are driving at much more than the sidetrack we are currently on.

I proved the quote where you dismissed "no difference." No you claim if a man usurps authority over another man, that is "different" from a women usurping authority over a man." But that is a distinction without a difference.

I did not say there is no difference, scripture says there is no difference.

No you claim the meaning of no difference refers to our existence once in eternity, but not in the here and now. That is just an effort at nullification. The claim no one is "in Christ" while in the here and now is false, Galatians 3:28 is written in the present tense, not future.

Apollos was NOT a child. What Timothy taught to men he had received from Paul and women.

Next you imply witnessing to men with the gospel is not exercising the authority of truth. Fiddlesticks.

 

[Ben1445]

I proved the quote where you dismissed "no difference." No you claim if a man usurps authority over another man, that is "different" from a women usurping authority over a man." But that is a distinction without a difference.

You have misunderstood me and you don’t listen when I tell you that.

I did not say there is no difference, scripture says there is no difference.

So I can go marry a man because there is no difference, so long as he is a Christian?

I don’t think so.

No you claim the meaning of no difference refers to our existence once in eternity, but not in the here and now. That is just an effort at nullification. The claim no one is "in Christ" while in the here and now is false, Galatians 3:28 is written in the present tense, not future.

Apollos was NOT a child. What Timothy taught to men he had received from Paul and women.

Next you imply witnessing to men with the gospel is not exercising the authority of truth. Fiddlesticks.

You create problems where they don’t exist.

There are most certainly differences between men and women.

1 Corinthians 11:10
For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

The point of the OP is the here and now in this world. It has no bearing on eternity in Christ.

could you please explain what you meant by your first post in this thread or was it just that you like to dig up a disagreement anyway you can?

You have continued to ignore that question.