Born Anew?

[Van]

We till the ground, we plant the seed, we water, but God alone causes the increase: He alone calls out some from the realm of darkness into His marvelous light. So why till the ground, prepare the field, plant and water if it serves no purpose in harvesting the fields white for harvest? Do we not serve as ambassadors, awakening the lost to their dreadful situation, heading for destruction and unable to save themselves?

Yes, those fields white for harvest are spiritually dead, separated from God, just as the physically dead are separated from the physically living. But they have the opportunity to obtain access to God's grace by trusting in the name of Christ Jesus.

Does scripture say we must be born anew in order to believe, or we must believe in order to be born anew? We must believe, and have our faith credited by God has righteousness in order to be born anew by the grace of God.

John 1:12 NKJV
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

When and if God credits the faith of a lost person as righteousness, that gives the person the "right to become" children of God. The claim we become children of God and then "receive Him by trusting in His gospel" is absurd nonsense.

Therefore, the opportunity for the grace of salvation is spread through the evangelism of believers. some till the ground, some plant the seed, others water, but it is God alone who causes the increase.

 

[DaveXR650]

That is what you calvinists say but that was just my God given free will in action.

I'll try one more time to explain this. I'm going to refer once again to J.C. Ryle and his work "Old Paths" just so you don't think I'm making this up by myself. I admit that some of the explanations Calvinists give for how all this works is actually painful to read, or embarrassing, if you would like to be affiliated with what we call Calvinism in any manner. But it's equally wrong to make it as you have above, with only the provision of information along with your free will.

If you look at chapter 13 of "Old Paths" you can begin to see what I am getting at. Ryle begins by explaining the importance of the "heart" in religion and how salvation is a supernatural work. At the same time he is appealing to the readers conscious, rational mind and assuming an ability to comprehend his warnings and respond. While doing this, as a Calvinist, he is constantly affirming that this will be a supernatural work should it be successful and come to fruition in the life of the reader. He explains it better than me but it is not complicated in that it flows much like John chapter 3 where Jesus tells Nicodemus that one must be born again, as an essential fact, yet says nothing of how he can accomplish this - except that he is to "believe".

I think what is happening here is that God is indeed sovereign and events and everything else have and will be carried out according to his plans which have already been determined and are not dependent on what we as humans will do to change them. At the same time we are truly acting according to our own free will to the extent that our makeup as created beings allows. The confusion inherent in the above paragraph as to the role of human will and supernatural regeneration is always going to be there for this simple reason - We always will act and respond according to our wills so that even if a supernatural regeneration occurs we must perceive this as ourselves changing our minds, and turning around or repenting or deciding to believe. To understand this I would suggest that in scripture the direct appeal on a human level is always that you repent and believe. At the same time it is suggested that a new heart is necessary, a new birth and that one's mind must be opened or sight given or some such explanation of supernatural enlightenment. Both are true.

Thus the errors to be avoided are as follows:
1. Should you desire Christ, his forgiveness, and the message of the gospel, do not arrogantly assume that you are to be applauded for your wise ability to see these things and respond to them. Scripture says otherwise.
2. The desire for Christ, if experienced, is the best indication to you that the Holy Spirit is at work and you may be at some point in regeneration or being given the new birth. You certainly are having your eyes opened and having a supernatural work done on your heart. But remember, the way this will manifest to you is nothing more than it suddenly seems to make sense, it appears to be right, and for all you know you have evaluated this and come the the conclusion yourself. But don't think too highly of yourself in this.
3. Don't think, if you lean towards Calvinistic philosophy, that you have any part in discerning whether someone else is manifesting a work of the Spirit or whether they might or might not be elect. And you can only appeal to people directly to repent and believe, you can't help them with the new birth any more than they can do it themselves. But you have promise on authority of scripture that all who come will be saved.
4. Most important, because of the above, it should be clear that your will is all you have for determining what it is you will freely do. If people are freely coming to Christ and insist it is by their own free will then they are actually right. But you know that it is a regenerated free will. And don't get all messed up in the timing of regeneration and faith. The work of the Spirit is on the will, therefore don't be surprised when it is hard to separate this logically or in chronology.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

3) If a person had been chosen as God's own possession, would they be children of wrath? Nope.

Actually, yep! You tried this once before.

So no individual was chosen for salvation before God credited their faith as righteousness. That is the issue.

Cut and paste from post #60. Ephesians 2:3. 'Among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath.' Now 'we all' in this epistle are Paul and 'the saints who are in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus' (1:1). But those same people are those whom God 'chose ... in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love' and predestined to 'adoption as sons by Christ Jesus to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will' (1:4-5). So although we were children of wrath, nevertheless God chose us for His own possession. On what basis? 'According to the good pleasure of His will.' Please read this through again carefully and follow The Holy Spirit's logic.

 

[Van]

Actually, yep! You tried this once before.

Cut and paste from post #60. Ephesians 2:3. 'Among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath.' Now 'we all' in this epistle are Paul and 'the saints who are in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus' (1:1). But those same people are those whom God 'chose ... in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love' and predestined to 'adoption as sons by Christ Jesus to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will' (1:4-5). So although we were children of wrath, nevertheless God chose us for His own possession. On what basis? 'According to the good pleasure of His will.' Please read this through again carefully and follow The Holy Spirit's logic.

I did and it is gibberish.

You know or should know my view of "chose....in Him" is Christ was chosen as God's Lamb, His Redeemer, and therefore when Christ was chosen individually before creation, those He might redeem, the target group of God's redemption plan, were chosen, NOT individually, but "corporately."

I have presented this interpretation dozens of times, and yet you pretend I have not presented it.

Only after we were transferred spiritually into Christ we were individually "predestined" to be bodily redeemed at Christ's second coming. I have presented this view dozens of times also.

That God did this according to the good pleasure of His will is true, but not at issue.

Your claim we were chosen individually for God's own possession, yet were still by nature, children of wrath, contradicts Romans 8:33. As one of God's elect, individually chosen during my lifetime based on God crediting my faith as righteousness, I am NOT by nature a child of wrath, but a child of God!

 

[Silverhair]

I'll try one more time to explain this. I'm going to refer once again to J.C. Ryle and his work "Old Paths" just so you don't think I'm making this up by myself. I admit that some of the explanations Calvinists give for how all this works is actually painful to read, or embarrassing, if you would like to be affiliated with what we call Calvinism in any manner. But it's equally wrong to make it as you have above, with only the provision of information along with your free will.

If you look at chapter 13 of "Old Paths" you can begin to see what I am getting at. Ryle begins by explaining the importance of the "heart" in religion and how salvation is a supernatural work. At the same time he is appealing to the readers conscious, rational mind and assuming an ability to comprehend his warnings and respond. While doing this, as a Calvinist, he is constantly affirming that this will be a supernatural work should it be successful and come to fruition in the life of the reader. He explains it better than me but it is not complicated in that it flows much like John chapter 3 where Jesus tells Nicodemus that one must be born again, as an essential fact, yet says nothing of how he can accomplish this - except that he is to "believe".

I think what is happening here is that God is indeed sovereign and events and everything else have and will be carried out according to his plans which have already been determined and are not dependent on what we as humans will do to change them. At the same time we are truly acting according to our own free will to the extent that our makeup as created beings allows. The confusion inherent in the above paragraph as to the role of human will and supernatural regeneration is always going to be there for this simple reason - We always will act and respond according to our wills so that even if a supernatural regeneration occurs we must perceive this as ourselves changing our minds, and turning around or repenting or deciding to believe. To understand this I would suggest that in scripture the direct appeal on a human level is always that you repent and believe. At the same time it is suggested that a new heart is necessary, a new birth and that one's mind must be opened or sight given or some such explanation of supernatural enlightenment. Both are true.

Thus the errors to be avoided are as follows:
1. Should you desire Christ, his forgiveness, and the message of the gospel, do not arrogantly assume that you are to be applauded for your wise ability to see these things and respond to them. Scripture says otherwise.
2. The desire for Christ, if experienced, is the best indication to you that the Holy Spirit is at work and you may be at some point in regeneration or being given the new birth. You certainly are having your eyes opened and having a supernatural work done on your heart. But remember, the way this will manifest to you is nothing more than it suddenly seems to make sense, it appears to be right, and for all you know you have evaluated this and come the the conclusion yourself. But don't think too highly of yourself in this.
3. Don't think, if you lean towards Calvinistic philosophy, that you have any part in discerning whether someone else is manifesting a work of the Spirit or whether they might or might not be elect. And you can only appeal to people directly to repent and believe, you can't help them with the new birth any more than they can do it themselves. But you have promise on authority of scripture that all who come will be saved.
4. Most important, because of the above, it should be clear that your will is all you have for determining what it is you will freely do. If people are freely coming to Christ and insist it is by their own free will then they are actually right. But you know that it is a regenerated free will. And don't get all messed up in the timing of regeneration and faith. The work of the Spirit is on the will, therefore don't be surprised when it is hard to separate this logically or in chronology.

Dave I do actually understand what you are saying and what Ryle wrote. Where we divide is that he still falls back to the idea God has to regenerate us before we can actually trust in what we have been told.

Yes God has a plan and it will work out as He says it will. Those that trust in His risen son will be saved those that reject His son will be condemed. Does He know who will trust in His son, of course. Does He cause them to trust in His son, NO.

I am not in disagreement that only God can save and the bible is clear that He only saves those that believe.
Where I see Ryle and calvinism go off track is when they insist that God has already determined all that will happen as you alluded to in your comments. "events and everything else have and will be carried out according to his plans which have already been determined and are not dependent on what we as humans will do to change them"

If we are only allowed to have a limited free will in regard to our salvation then how can it be said that God is being just when He judges those that reject Him?

If God has, as calvinism insists, determined all things then why have so many rejected God even though He says he wants all to come to repentance. There are only two options
1] God planned that most would reject Him, which goes against scripture
or
2] man has an actual free will with which he can make real choices.

We see in the bible that God has provide various means for man to know Him. So it is obvious that man must have a free will with which to respond to those various means.

All I see from Ryle's comments is that your free will is not really a free will as you have had the regeneration or being given the new birth before you can choose to follow God.

Not what I see in scripture. But if you are comfortable with it then hold to that view.

 

[percho]

Relative to No. 1

Psalm 51:5 Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.

Does the above state, as fleshly humans we are born, brought forth, in sin because in sin we were conceived in our mother?

Does that describe what is stated From John 3:6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh?

To be conceived, then, brought forth?

From John 3:6 and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Romans 8:11 and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.

Does the above not imply being born of the spirit requires conceived by the the Spirit unto being brought forth of the Spirit?

Consider the following verses:
And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things -- himself -- first, Col 1:18
because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; [So born]
beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is; 1 John 3:2

Consider also:
1 Cor 15:50-53 NKJV Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

V 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

After when/what? in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

 

[DaveXR650]

@Silverhair. Thanks for reading my post. I know they can be long. My point is that you would be comfortable with the explanation and order of salvation as explained by guys like J.C. Ryle. Regarding "conversion", which he does view as a supernatural work of God he says the following:
"I urge every reader of this book who is not converted, never to rest till he is. Make haste: awake to know your danger. Escape for your life: flee from the wrath to come. Time is short: eternity is near. Life is uncertain: judgment is sure. Arise and call upon God."

In other words, he, while believing that this is a supernatural work, did not go around telling people they are doing a legal work if they actively do something like go to Christ and believe the gospel. And he had no problem saying that those who sincerely do this will experience conversion. He was not hung up on the order in time of going to Christ and actually being born again and I think the reason is that the work of the Spirit and our will is so closely tied together that such distinctions are of no practical meaning.

Bottom line is that he told folks to "arise and call upon God" with the promise being that they who sincerely did so would be born again. Or so he says in Chapter 12 which is called "Conversion".

All I see from Ryle's comments is that your free will is not really a free will as you have had the regeneration or being given the new birth before you can choose to follow God.

Well, if he was telling folks to arise and call upon God once they realize that they are not born again and need to be so - does not that satisfy your concerns that he is neglecting the use of our wills. While I can see why you might be concerned if he was saying that it isn't really "you" that comes to Christ - but that's not even hinted at. He simply encourages people to come to Christ. There is no way to make that more of an active, willful thing to do - unless you mean to somehow insist that the merit and goodness and wisdom of doing so must in some way be reserved for the person coming. All a Calvinist says is that that would be a problem both from the aspect of your trying to reserve some sense of goodness for your self and in addition it doesn't seem to fit with the testimony of most Christians, Calvinist in theology or not, who all seem to report some feeling of drawing or conviction from outside of themselves which they felt compelled to respond to. Even those who don't report that still say that there was a point where all they have heard about Christ and the gospel just "appears" true and they now believe whereas before they didn't.