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Hell by the Numbers

Van

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The concept of Hell is a construct of confused translation.

The Bible uses the term Sheol as the abode of the dead, and based on context, sometimes refers to place where the body undergoes decay, i.e. a grave, and sometimes a place where our disembodied spirits go following physical death.

The concept of Death includes a whole range of meanings, from the place of the dead, to the cause of death (sin) and sometimes the whole range is personified, such as O Death, where is thou sting.

Hades falls under Death, like a companion, the abode of those suffering from the plagues of death, including torment. Thus Hades follows close behind Death, and when Death is destroyed, Hades no longer has any purpose and is likewise destroyed.

The Abyss is just another metaphorical reference to Hades, a temporary holding place for spirit beings. Likewise, the outer darkness is like the deepest pit in Hades, a location in Hades of suffering isolated from the light of God. Hence, when we enter the Eternal Kingdom, lighted by God Himself, we leave those outside in outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If you want to grow in your understanding of Hades and Gehenna, put a G or a H next to every usage of the word Hell in your translation. You will be surprised how the temporary place, Hades and the Final destination Gehenna are clearly described in scripture. Note that Gehenna, a place of destruction of the dead, has fires that burn with unquenchable fire, or in other words appears to be the location the lake of fire.

Luke 12:5, But I will warn you whom to fear, fear the One who after He has killed has the authority to cast into hell (Gehenna).

Mark 9:45, And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having two feet, to be cast into hell (Gehenna).

Mark 9:47-48, And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, be cast into Hell (Gehenna) where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 3:12, His winnowing fork is in His hand and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matthew 13:30, ... In the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, first gather up the tares and bind them (in Hades??) to burn them up (in Gehenna??) but gather the wheat into My barn (the Kingdom??).

Matthew 13:39, ... the harvest is at the end of the age, and the reapers are angels, so just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks and those who practice lawlessness and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Is the furnace of fire the place of torment in Hades??).

Matthew 8:12, but the sons of the kingdom (Jews who reject Christ) will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place (Hades??) there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Clearly the "furnace of fire" and the "outer darkness" share the idea of torment and regret, just like in Hades.)

In Luke 16:19-31 we see that angels carried the guy to the place of comfort and so although not mentioned, we can infer that the reapers also carried the rich man to the place of torment, in effect binding him to be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). Flame is mentioned in Hades, Luke 16:24, and torment is mentioned to occur in Hades Luke 16:23.

Understanding the Abyss. The abyss is a figurative reference to Hades, and literally refers to a deep place. When the Greek word for abyss is coupled with the Greek word for well or shaft or pit, the idea is a narrow opening on the surface that extends down to the much larger cavern of the abyss. So rather than bottomless pit as the KJV renders the coupling, it should be abyss shaft. You will note that verses that use this construction (abyss shaft) make reference to entering or exiting or sealing the abyss.

Lets look at a few verses:

Luke 8:31 has demons whose collective name is legion, asking not to be consigned to the abyss.

Romans 10:7 refers to the abyss as the place of the dead.

Revelation 9:1 refers to the angel who has the key to the abyss shaft, or in other words is able to open it up.

In Revelation 9:2, we see that the shaft was opened and smoke came out as from a furnace (the same furnace of fire perhaps mentioned in Matthew 13:39) and so the underground shaft acted like a chimney.

Out of this opening shaft of the abyss came locusts and in Revelation 9:11 we learn the Hebrew and Greek name for the king of the locusts, referred to as the king of the abyss, with both names meaning destruction or destroyer.

In Revelation 11:7, the beast ascends out of the abyss.

Revelation 17:8, The beast that you saw was and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those that dwell on the earth, whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come." Here we see that the beast comes from the abyss (Hades) and goes to destruction, the lake of fire as described in Revelation 19:20.

In Revelation 20:1 we see again that the abyss is opened and Satan is placed inside and in verse three, the abyss is sealed to confine Satan for the thousand-year reign of Christ.

In Revelation 20:7-10, we see that Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet are thrown into the lake of fire where they (those three) are tormented day and night forever and ever.

Luke 16:19-31 shows that mercy is not available after we die in Adam. No verse has been offered to support salvation from Hades. But to the contrary, verses have been presented which say the folks in Hades are judged and tossed into the Lake of Fire. So we have what is said, and we have folks who make an argument from silence based on an invention of man
.
 

percho

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No verse has been offered to support salvation from Hades.

Do not these verses show salvation from and or out of, the death and Hades?

and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' 1 Cor 15:54,55
 

Van

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Do not these verses show salvation from and or out of, the death and Hades?

and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' 1 Cor 15:54,55
1) Yes, but they do not refer to Hades and Gehenna as "Hell."
2) Your translation, the YLT, mistranslates the verse in my opinion. The OT quoted says "Sheol" but the CT has the Greek saying death not Hades.
 

percho

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1) Yes, but they do not refer to Hades and Gehenna as "Hell."
2) Your translation, the YLT, mistranslates the verse in my opinion. The OT quoted says "Sheol" but the CT has the Greek saying death not Hades.

Well not all the Greek manuscripts read death including the LXX.
 

percho

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I agree with you concerning the translators. Take hell for example.

Matt 16:18 KJV And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

IMHO a terrible choice of words. I believe hades there goes with what I posted above.

To me the gates of Hades are sin and death. Sin and death unto Hades shall not prevail over the church just as sin unto death unto Hades did not prevail over the foundation stone of the church. Jesus the Christ.

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Death did not prevail against him. Neither did our sins. Neither did Hades. Acts 2:31 NKJV “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

1 Cor 15:54,55 is relative to people in the church who dead or alive are inheriting the kingdom of God. Verse 50 The dead ones out of sin, death and Hades.
 

Van

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Well not all the Greek manuscripts read death including the LXX.
What verse in the LXX (a Greek translation of the Old Testament) are you talking about. The LXX is NOT inspired. We have the inspired OT, in Hebrew or Aramaic, and the NT in Greek.
 

Van

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I believe the gates of Hades refers to something very different from the view expressed by Percho.

The gates do NOT prevail over the church, the church prevails over the gates of Hades. When humans are conceived, as made sinners, we enter life within the gates of Hades, in the realm or domain of darkness. But the church can prevail and remove made sinners from within the gates of Hades, as the church are those "called out" of the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His beloved Son.
 

percho

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What verse in the LXX (a Greek translation of the Old Testament) are you talking about. The LXX is NOT inspired. We have the inspired OT, in Hebrew or Aramaic, and the NT in Greek.
Hosea 13:14 NKJV
“I will ransom them from the power of the grave;[fn]
I will redeem them from death.
O Death, I will be your plagues![fn]
O Grave,[fn] I will be your destruction![fn]
Pity is hidden from My eyes.”

YLT From the hand of Sheol I do ransom them, From death I redeem them, Where is thy plague, O death? Where thy destruction, O Sheol? Repentance is hid from Mine eyes.

LXX Whether inspired or not
ἐκ χειρὸς ᾅδου ῥύσομαι αὐτοὺς καὶ ἐκ θανάτου λυτρώσομαι αὐτούς ποῦ ἡ δίκη σου θάνατε ποῦ τὸ κέντρον σου ᾅδη παράκλησις κέκρυπται ἀπὸ ὀφθαλμῶν μου
 

Van

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Hosea 13:14 NKJV
“I will ransom them from the power of the grave;[fn]
I will redeem them from death.
O Death, I will be your plagues![fn]
O Grave,[fn] I will be your destruction![fn]
Pity is hidden from My eyes.”

YLT From the hand of Sheol I do ransom them, From death I redeem them, Where is thy plague, O death? Where thy destruction, O Sheol? Repentance is hid from Mine eyes.

LXX Whether inspired or not
ἐκ χειρὸς ᾅδου ῥύσομαι αὐτοὺς καὶ ἐκ θανάτου λυτρώσομαι αὐτούς ποῦ ἡ δίκη σου θάνατε ποῦ τὸ κέντρον σου ᾅδη παράκλησις κέκρυπται ἀπὸ ὀφθαλμῶν μου
You forgot to say what point you were trying to make.

If the inspired text says "death" and the non-inspired text says "Hades" you should stick with death!
 

percho

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I believe the gates of Hades refers to something very different from the view expressed by Percho.

The gates do NOT prevail over the church, the church prevails over the gates of Hades. When humans are conceived, as made sinners, we enter life within the gates of Hades, in the realm or domain of darkness. But the church can prevail and remove made sinners from within the gates of Hades, as the church are those "called out" of the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His beloved Son.
That is correct the church prevails over sin, death and hades at the following;

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [to inherit the kingdom of God] ( next verse shows where this passage is the same as 1 Cor 15:50-52 relative to dead and alive) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede [inheriting the kingdom of God] those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Cor 15:51- Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
 

percho

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You forgot to say what point you were trying to make.

If the inspired text says "death" and the non-inspired text says "Hades" you should stick with death!
15:55 ποῦ σου θάνατε τὸ κέντρον ποῦ σου ᾅδη, τὸ νῖκος From Textus Receptus
15:55 ποῦ σου θάνατε τὸ νῖκος ποῦ σου θάνατε τὸ κέντρον From Morphological GNT

Who gets to say which is inspired?
 

Van

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15:55 ποῦ σου θάνατε τὸ κέντρον ποῦ σου ᾅδη, τὸ νῖκος From Textus Receptus
15:55 ποῦ σου θάνατε τὸ νῖκος ποῦ σου θάνατε τὸ κέντρον From Morphological GNT

Who gets to say which is inspired?
If you do NOT know which is inspired, nothing I can say will help.
 
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