Repeating themes in Revelation

[Charlie24]

The repeating themes that you are talking about are the overlaps of the continuation of what's taking place.

The sequence is from the day of John the Church Age running it's course to the New Heaven and the New Earth.

It's given in chronological order.

Something else for you to consider, but I may be getting ahead the ball game here, but intend to explain it in a coming thread.

There are 7 dispensations in history, and there are 7 letters to the Churches in Rev.

The 7 letters to the Churches is the 6th dispensation in history.

The 7 letters are the fulfillment of the Church Age in the 6th dispensation of Grace.

 

[Charlie24]

Something else for you to consider, but I may be getting ahead the ball game here, but intend to explain it in a coming thread.

There are 7 dispensations in history, and there are 7 letters to the Churches in Rev.

The 7 letters to the Churches is the 6th dispensation in history.

The 7 letters are the fulfillment of the Church Age in the 6th dispensation of Grace.

Hopefully I'm explaining this in a way you can understand.

The point is that all the dispensations in the progression of time have and are being fulfilled in chronological order.

The Book of Rev. is no exception.

 

[kyredneck]

I’d like to discuss the way John uses repeating themes in Revelation.

One 'repeating theme' from beginning to end, literally, is the redundant 'imminent return' passages, not only in Revelation but throughout the NT.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;,,,,,,, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1: 1, 3

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12: 12

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

 

[canadyjd]

Canadyjd, everything in Rev. is a continuous time period revealed as it unfolds, it's seen by John in spirit of what's to come.

Even the 7 letters are are a continuous time period leading up to the Great Tribulation that begins in Chp. 6. They represent the Church from the day of John until the end of the Church Age.

The first letter is to Ephesus which was the 1st century Church of John's day.

Smyrna, is the martyr Church from 100ad - 300 ad.

Pergamos, is the State Church that laid the groundwork for the RCC, 300ad - 500ad.

Thyatira, is the Papal Church, the RCC and continues to this day, 500ad - present.

Sardis, is the Reformation Church of the reformers and continues to this day, 1500ad - present.

Philadelphia, is the Missionary Church and continues to this day, 1800ad - present.

Laodicea, is the Apostate Church and is present today along with the true Church.

How does that “continuous time period” explain the references to the casting out of Satan and the birth of Jesus?

It is either a continuous story or it isn’t. It can’t be a continuous story starting with John while referring to Satan being cast out of heaven with his demons and the birth of Jesus.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

It is continuous, there are historical references (many books have such, including the book of Acts), and there are recurring themes. (I don't believe I ever said there were not themes.)

Your answer is inconsistent with your previous statements.

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

How does that “continuous time period” explain the references to the casting out of Satan and the birth of Jesus?

It is either a continuous story or it isn’t. It can’t be a continuous story starting with John while referring to Satan being cast out of heaven with his demons and the birth of Jesus.

Peace to you

Everything in Revelation is future at the point of the Church Age coming to a close in Chapter 3, immediately following is the Rapture in Chapter 4.

Revelation from this point is the wrath of God falling on earth, through Chapter 19.

Satan is cast out of heaven to this earth with all his evil spirits and demons following him. This is the war Michael and his angles are fighting against the "dragon" which is Satan.

What you are mistaking for the birth of Christ in Rev. 12:5 is the man child who are the first fruits of Israel's redemption promised by God, they are the 144, 000 from the 12 tribes of Israel. The man child is birthed by Jacob/Israel.

They are to rule with a rod of Iron (12:5), is not Christ, it is Israel ruling under Christ in the Kingdom Age.

 

[canadyjd]

Everything in Revelation is future at the point of the Church Age coming to a close in Chapter 3, immediately following is the Rapture in Chapter 4.

Revelation from this point is the wrath of God falling on earth, through Chapter 19.

Satan is cast out of heaven to this earth with all his evil spirits and demons following him. This is the war Michael and his angles are fighting against the "dragon" which is Satan.

What you are mistaking for the birth of Christ in Rev. 12:5 is the man child who are the first fruits of Israel's redemption promised by God, they are the 144, 000 from the 12 tribes of Israel. The man child is birthed by Jacob/Israel.

They are to rule with a rod of Iron (12:5), is not Christ, it is Israel ruling under Christ in the Kingdom Age.

I would suggest you are viewing it all through the lens of dispensationalism, rather than following the context.

Christ will rule with a rod of iron is a repeating theme. To make it fit dispensationalism you take the rod from Christ and give it to men. You take the kingdom of Christ and make it the kingdom of Israel.

You have Satan being cast out of heaven twice with 1/3 of the angels (now demons). There is no indication the cast out demons were allowed to return to heaven, though Satan is said to be our accuser, as with Job.

You are at odds with JOJ, who recognized Satan being cast out and Jesus being born in Chapter 12, but simply dismissed it as a historical story within the 7 seven years, if I understood his point.

The inconsistencies cannot be overcome or ignored, if anyone is looking at the text with an open mind.

You have stated this view (that I hold) has been long taught as part of Reformed theology. I haven’t studied reformed theology that closely, so quite frankly, I don’t know.

Whether Dr. Tomlinson held these views, I do not know, though I do know some at Mid Western did, while I was there.

What I found so convincing was not the theology, but the scholarship. The info on Roman culture, specifically on Bema seat protocols simply opened up my understanding of Revelation.

I cannot “unlearn” that. It will guide my understanding.

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

I would suggest you are viewing it all through the lens of dispensationalism, rather than following the context.

Christ will rule with a rod of iron is a repeating theme. To make it fit dispensationalism you take the rod from Christ and give it to men. You take the kingdom of Christ and make it the kingdom of Israel.

You have Satan being cast out of heaven twice with 1/3 of the angels (now demons). There is no indication the cast out demons were allowed to return to heaven, though Satan is said to be our accuser, as with Job.

You are at odds with JOJ, who recognized Satan being cast out and Jesus being born in Chapter 12, but simply dismissed it as a historical story within the 7 seven years, if I understood his point.

The inconsistencies cannot be overcome or ignored, if anyone is looking at the text with an open mind.

You have stated this view (that I hold) has been long taught as part of Reformed theology. I haven’t studied reformed theology that closely, so quite frankly, I don’t know.

Whether Dr. Tomlinson held these views, I do not know, though I do know some at Mid Western did, while I was there.

What I found so convincing was not the theology, but the scholarship. The info on Roman culture, specifically on Bema seat protocols simply opened up my understanding of Revelation.

I cannot “unlearn” that. It will guide my understanding.

Peace to you

And I would suggest you are wrong, my friend!

Rev. 2:25-27

"But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."

You see, canadyjd, Israel will rule over the nations of this world from Jerusalem for 1000 years, under Christ.

What I haven't told you yet is that the Church rules with them, but we don't know the capacity of that Gentile rule with them.

 

[Charlie24]

And I would suggest you are wrong, my friend!

Rev. 2:25-27

"But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."

You see, canadyjd, Israel will rule over the nations of this world from Jerusalem for 1000 years, under Christ.

What I haven't told you yet is that the Church rules with them, but we don't know the capacity of that Gentile rule with them.

What we do know is that under the Law of Moses the men of the tribe of Levi were the priests and tended to the sacrifices beginning at the age of 30, The reason Christ couldn't start His ministry as the Sacrifice for man until He was 30, He was keeping the Law.

In the Kingdom Age when the sacrifices are reinstated, the priests that tend to the sacrifices are of the tribe of Levi, but only of the seed of Zadok.

Zadok was the High Priest of David during his rule. Christ will sit on the Throne of David when He comes, the literal Throne of David with the line of Priests David had which are all Jewish.

We don't know in what capacity the Gentiles will rule with them.

 

[Charlie24]

What we do know is that under the Law of Moses the men of the tribe of Levi were the priests and tended to the sacrifices beginning at the age of 30, The reason Christ couldn't start His ministry as the Sacrifice for man until He was 30, He was keeping the Law.

In the Kingdom Age when the sacrifices are reinstated, the priests that tend to the sacrifices are of the tribe of Levi, but only of the seed of Zadok.

Zadok was the High Priest of David during his rule. Christ will sit on the Throne of David when He comes, the literal Throne of David with the line of Priests David had which are all Jewish.

We don't know in what capacity the Gentiles will rule with them.

In that last line I meant to say "the Gentile Church."

 

[kyredneck]

Everything in Revelation is future at the point of the Church Age coming to a close in Chapter 3

<incredible> "None so blind as those who will not see."

 

[Charlie24]

<incredible> "None so blind as those who will not see."

Yes, it's incredible the difference in Reformed Theology and Dispensationalism.

 

[kyredneck]

Christ will rule with a rod of iron

He rules now:

Matthew Chapter 28

18​	And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.

Satan being cast out of heaven

"War in heaven" mirrored on earth:

Luke Chapter 10

17​	And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject unto us in thy name.
18​	And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.

Revelation Chapter 12

17​	And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:

1st Peter Chapter 5

8​	Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour,

 

[kyredneck]

Yes, it's incredible the difference in Reformed Theology and Dispensationalism.

This is neither. This is scripture:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;,,,,,,, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1: 1, 3

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12: 12

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

 

[Charlie24]

This is neither. This is scripture:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;,,,,,,, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1: 1, 3

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12: 12

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

Ok, that's fine with me, K.

 

[canadyjd]

One 'repeating theme' from beginning to end, literally, is the redundant 'imminent return' passages, not only in Revelation but throughout the NT.

That was the expectation of the 1st century church.

There were warnings, also, not to falter if the Master does not.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;,,,,,,, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1: 1, 3

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12: 12

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

Thanks for the comments.

Peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

That was the expectation of the 1st century church.

That's because that's what Christ said.

 

[canadyjd]

That's because that's what Christ said.

Yes, and He also gave warning not to grow weary and lax while you waited.

Peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

Your answer is inconsistent with your previous statements.

Peace to you

How so?

 

[canadyjd]

How so?

Well, if Revelation is a depiction of a continuous 7 year period, after the rapture of the church and during the great tribulation period…. how can that be consistent with references to historical events such as Satan being cast out of heaven and the birth of Jesus?

I do appreciate your recognition of the repeating themes.

Peace to you