How many here hold to The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints

[Martin Marprelate]

There were others who traveled with Christian who arrived at the Celestial City when they departed from Christian’s journey as martyrs. But because it is Christian’s journey, the continuity of the story is written for his perspective. I don’t know if I remember some explanation or if I am remembering it into the story, but nobody enters exactly the same way (comes through life the same way). Bunyan doesn’t make everyone cross death at the same point.
It is one of those points in an allegory that must be understood. Analogy is never perfect.

In other words, once beyond the Cross, it is a guarantee that any traveler who has come by the way of the Cross will get to the Celestial City. But the characters in Vanity Fair are not on their way to the celestial city. The cross would be a different location in each of their lives as would be their crossing over.

My take. I never ran it past Bunyan.

Acts 14:22. 'We must, through many tribulations, enter the kingdom of God.' Pilgrim's path led him through Bypath Meadow into Doubting Castle and giant Despair. He also had to pass the blandishments of Vanity Fair. The Christian, by God's grace, will persevere, but it is also necessary that he does.

I also read "The Holy War" by Bunyan (again years ago). It is equally as well done. It was a great read, no less quality as "Pilgrim's Progress."
Anyone else read it? (don't want to hijack the thread though).

Yes, I read it some years back; excellent book as are all Bunyan's works.
Grace abounding to the Chief of Sinners is his autobiography. Other great titles are The Intercession of Christ and Come and welcome to the Lord Jesus Christ. Was that last book really written by a Calvinist? Yes it was!
There are also, The Life and Death of Mr Badman, The Heavenly Footman and The Acceptable sacrifice. All excellent books and available at low prices in paperback.

 

[Silverhair]

Preservation, not perseverance.

What we find in scripture is that those the persevere in trusting in Christ Jesus even through trials and persecution will be saved those that do not will be lost.

Mar_13:13, Rom 2:6-7, Rom_8:25, 1Co_10:13, 2Th_1:4, Rev_2:10

 

[Paleouss]

Which is not quite the same as "once saved always saved"

IMO, I agree. Some, like myself, think OSAS is not the same thing as Perseverance of the Saints. However, many times people see no difference. Which is unfortunate, imo.

To me, Perseverance of the Saints is strictly a Calvinistic doctrine that follows from the theology that the saints were chosen before the foundation of the world. More accurately, that the saints are the first intention in the decrees of God (i.e., Superlapsarianism). Logic would seem to dictate that one cannot lose their salvation if one is already chosen to be saved (so it goes). The problem is with the Superlapsarian model.

On the other hand, some people intend OSAS to mean that after one accepts Christ into their heart and "believes" there is a point were we are reborn of the Spirit. Made a new man by God. We are now His sheep, adopted into His family where no one can pluck Him from His hand. This focuses on the temporal point of God's work that saves.

I think both sides have good verses that need attention, prayer and thought. Personally, I do believe in OSAS. Just not the Calvinistic Superlapsarian formulation of it. I also believe that some of the caution verses are genuine. The flash point for me is the "when" are you actually saved.

I find 2 Corinthians interesting...
(2Cor 13:5 ESV) 5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Here in 2 Corinthians, Paul is speaking to those who think they are in God's family. They all are professed Christians, it is presumed. But Paul suggests in the last part of the verse..."unless indeed you fail to meet the test". In other words, test yourselves and see if you are actually saved. Because...maybe you are not.

Peace to you brothers

 

[Ascetic X]

I find 2 Corinthians interesting...
(2Cor 13:5 ESV) 5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Here in 2 Corinthians, Paul is speaking to those who think they are in God's family. They all are professed Christians, it is presumed. But Paul suggests in the last part of the verse..."unless indeed you fail to meet the test". In other words, test yourselves and see if you are actually saved. Because...maybe you are not.

I wonder how many of us have seriously examined the true state of our souls. As long as we remain smug, complacent, and sure of our salvation, without closely inspecting our lives, we could be headed for hell.

 

[37818]

I wonder how many of us have seriously examined the true state of our souls. As long as we remain smug, complacent, and sure of our salvation, without closely inspecting our lives, we could be headed for hell.

Titus 1:2, In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; . . . .

1 John 5:9-13, If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[Silverhair]

We have the preservation of our souls through faith in Jesus Christ as long as we persevere in our faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Ascetic X]

Titus 1:2, In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; . . . .

1 John 5:9-13, If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

We know we have eternal life when we crucify the flesh and obey Jesus.

 

[37818]

We know we have eternal life when we crucify the flesh and obey Jesus.

So what life actions is a believer to practice to know one is saved?

 

[Ascetic X]

So what life actions is a believer to practice to know one is saved?

Hating sin in our life. Love reading the Bible. Sharing your faith with others. Being kind. Forgiving people. Praying constantly. Avoiding turmoil. Not being quarrelsome. Trusting God.

 

[37818]

Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[37818]

Titus 3:5-7, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[37818]

Hating sin in our life. Love reading the Bible. Sharing your faith with others. Being kind. Forgiving people. Praying constantly. Avoiding turmoil. Not being quarrelsome. Trusting God.

Titus 3:5-7, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[Ascetic X]

Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Yes, but I did not say that we must do good works to get saved. Once we are saved by grace through faith, our lives should reflect our being born again. If the fruit of the Spirit is not happening in a person, do they really have the Holy Spirit in them?

 

[Ascetic X]

Titus 3:5-7, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Do not confuse getting saved with acting like you are saved. If you think you are saved, but there is no evidence of salvation in your life, what is the point? Do we get saved just so we can go to heaven when we die? Or is there more to it?

 

[JD731]

I think there are several definitions for salvation by posters on this forum. Some believe salvation is by grace through faith while others believe it is by faith through grace. The latter is held by those who erroneously teach that faith itself is a grace of God, a gift that only some foreordained are given thus making grace sovereign and salvation unavailable to most. These ideas are worlds apart and different ways of being saved.

These are just two definitions that are commonly held on Baptist Forum. As for me, I believe the Spirit of God is Life and is received when a man receives Jesus Christ as savior from his sins and this transaction between the sinner and God the Father is an eternal transaction that transforms the sinner into a son of God in the family of God and it occurs when the sinners believes. The Spirit, salvation, righteousness. the new birth, eternal life, are synonyms and are common in true believers of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Ascetic X]

I think there are several definitions for salvation by posters on this forum. Some believe salvation is by grace through faith while others believe it is by faith through grace. The latter is held by those who erroneously teach that faith itself is a grace of God, a gift that only some foreordained are given thus making grace sovereign and salvation unavailable to most. These ideas are worlds apart and different ways of being saved.

These are just two definitions that are commonly held on Baptist Forum. As for me, I believe the Spirit of God is Life and is received when a man receives Jesus Christ as savior from his sins and this transaction between the sinner and God the Father is an eternal transaction that transforms the sinner into a son of God in the family of God and it occurs when the sinners believes. The Spirit, salvation, righteousness. the new birth, eternal life, are synonyms and are common in true believers of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Some think faith is works, repenting is works, seeking God is works. They think God just arbitrarily swoops down on a person and puts the new birth into them, and then the person seeks God, repents, and exercises faith.

Some people think that you can get saved and no change in heart or behavior necessarily occurs. They think a saved individual can act like nothing happened to them spiritually and they need not ever have any evidence of their salvation.

 

[37818]

Hebrews 8:12, For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

John 10:28, And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings brother JD

I think there are several definitions for salvation by posters on this forum. Some believe salvation is by grace through faith while others believe it is by faith through grace. The latter is held by those who erroneously teach that faith itself is a grace of God, a gift that only some foreordained are given thus making grace sovereign and salvation unavailable to most. These ideas are worlds apart and different ways of being saved.

These are just two definitions that are commonly held on Baptist Forum. As for me, I believe the Spirit of God is Life and is received when a man receives Jesus Christ as savior from his sins and this transaction between the sinner and God the Father is an eternal transaction that transforms the sinner into a son of God in the family of God and it occurs when the sinners believes. The Spirit, salvation, righteousness. the new birth, eternal life, are synonyms and are common in true believers of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So based on what you just said and sticking to the OP. Where does this lead? Is it Persaverience of the Saints? Once Saved Always Saved? Or can one lose their salvation?


Peace to you brother

 

[JD731]

Greetings brother JD

So based on what you just said and sticking to the OP. Where does this lead? Is it Persaverience of the Saints? Once Saved Always Saved? Or can one lose their salvation?


Peace to you brother

If one understands the sonship of the born again believer he will have no need to make up non bibilical descriptions for his position. God says we are all sons of Adam and are in his family through our physical birth. We are not sons of God by that kind of birth. We must be born again the scriptures say. That is as much of an event as being born physically into the family of Adam. Does being born again mean we lose our identity as sons of Adam? I trow not. We are in no danger of being unborn physically. One cannot be unborn. He can be cast aside. He can be disinherited. But his birth was an event that is sealed in history.
But the body we live in was the only thing we received through our birth into the human family of which Adam is the head. We did not receive our spirit from him. The spirit identifies our personality. It is who we are. we are eternal. We will still be the same person long after our bodies die and returns to dust and our soul is separated from it. The soul then is the spirit of man. It is given by God when we are conceived.

1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

In case you missed it the Preacher is talking about the body and soul, the natural man. In this condition all is vexation and vanity. It is a vain life if this is all there is because the body gets old shortly and goes back to the dust from where it came and the spirit is separated from it and goes back into the hands of God, who gave it, to face judgement for every deed of the body whether is be good or bad.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

The spiritual man is not under discussion in Ecclesiastes.

I do not know if you have ever read with discernment Romans 8 where believers have been made tri-part by the presence of the Spirit of God in the body but it is a must read. Yes the born again man still has the old Adamic dead weak body but now the Spirit is in it and look at the contrast here.

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
(NOTE) if one does not define "dead" biblically one will not understand. Dead does not mean cessation of being, it means separated from God. The body is where sin dwells. The soul has been redeemed, the body hasn't. What is the solution. The blood of Jesus washes away sin and forgives the sinner who has received him and the Spirit of Christ is the perfect righteousness that God requires.

Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Surely one can see that sin did occupy the body and it was dead but now the Spirit of God and of Christ occupies the body and it is alive. This is the new birth. Going from death to life. Don't miss this.

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Think! If the church is corporately one body and we are one with Christ then we MUST be joint heirs with him if we are glorified together. Glorified means we will each receive a glorified body like his body, but not until the body is fully formed. He has a glorified body at his resurrection. Now you know what we are predestinated to. We are promised, and it is the "blessed hope" that these weak bodies from Adam will be changed and we will have a new body, a glorified body from God like unto Christ's glorious body. This will happen at the rapture of the church after it is fully formed.

When we receive the new body we are once and forever severed from any trace of sinful Adam and we are totally a new creation in Christ Jesus.

Now, with that in mind I will quote just two more verses in this post.

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro 8:23 And not only they (the creature), but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit (Israel), even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

If you cannot see that from Ro 7:1 through Ro 11:12 the context is primarily to the Jew, who was first to receive the Spirit and the new birth, then you will miss the message and struggle with sound doctrine.

I have answered much more than you have asked but what I have said will help you if you don't already know these things.

May the Lord Jesus be high and lifted up. Amen.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings

I have answered much more than you have asked but what I have said will help you if you don't already know these things.

Indeed you have.

If one understands the sonship of the born again believer he will have no need to make up non bibilical descriptions for his position

I have taken your thorough response, that doesn't appear to have a direct answer, to suggest that you hold that... once one is 'born again' spiritually then one cannot be then 'unborn' spiritually. Therefore, once one is saved one will always be saved.

As a possible test of actual verse application, I wonder what your position is regarding the Parable of the Sower?

(Matt 13:20 NKJV) 20 "But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

In the Parable of the Sower, the soil of stony places after hearing the "word of God" (Luke 8:11) "immediately receives it with joy" (Matt 13:20). This soil is said to not only receive it with joy but "believe for a while" (Luke 8:13). In other words, this soil is excited, and receive the word of God with "gladness" (Mark 4:16) and they believe (according to scripture).

Yet, it also says of the soil and the sprout that springs forth from receiving the word of God, that it "has no root in himself" (Matt 13:21), and therefore "endure only for a time" (Mark 4:17)...which means he after a while "falls away" (Luke 8:13).

In this depiction of someone receiving the word of God and is said to "believe for a while" (which implies he no longer believes in the future). Was this person ever saved even though it says he "believed"? Further, is this person now currently saved even though it says he never had any "root" and has "fallen away"?


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2:1-6)