Moses or Christ? Paul's Reply to Dispensational Error

[SovereignGrace]

There actually is a difference between Israel and the church.

And yet Paul says they are one new man in Christ, both comprising the body, of which He is the head. He is not the head of two distinct bodies, but one.

That’s why we have an Old Testament and a New Testament.

And this is what irks me about dispensationalism. You guys fracture the book into two separate entities, when it is one continuous book. The foundation of the NT scriptures is the OT scriptures. Without the OT, we have no NT. And lets say you are right for argument's sake. Your argument leads to this, the NT is not for the Jews today. If the OT is not for us today, then the NT is not for the Jews today. Are you willing to go that far with your belief?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Your personal attack is not necessary. Nor is shouting with bold text.

Your quotes are about the church, the body of Christ, which is different from national Israel.

This is why we have an Old Testament and a New Testament.

Reread it....

whether Jews or Greeks,

made both one,

For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

that he might create in himself of the two one new man

and they shall become one flock,


In @kyredneck 's post, I took these snippets, and all of these vss clearly show both Jews and Gentiles comprising the body of Christ.

 

[Ascetic X]

And yet Paul says they are one new man in Christ, both comprising the body, of which He is the head. He is not the head of two distinct bodies, but one.



And this is what irks me about dispensationalism. You guys fracture the book into two separate entities, when it is one continuous book. The foundation of the NT scriptures is the OT scriptures. Without the OT, we have no NT. And lets say you are right for argument's sake. Your argument leads to this, the NT is not for the Jews today. If the OT is not for us today, then the NT is not for the Jews today. Are you willing to go that far with your belief?

I never claimed to be a dispensationalist. I am debunking the antisemitic heresy of Replacement Theology. The church has not replaced Israel in God’s plan. Jew and gentiles are one in the church, but not before they are born again into the body of Christ — but after the church is raptured, there will be Jew and gentiles as separate entities, and no church on earth.

 

[Ascetic X]

Reread it....

whether Jews or Greeks,

made both one,

For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

that he might create in himself of the two one new man

and they shall become one flock,


In @kyredneck 's post, I took these snippets, and all of these vss clearly show both Jews and Gentiles comprising the body of Christ.

Read my posts again. I never said Jew and gentile were not one in the body of Christ. I said national Israel and the church are different.

 

[Ascetic X]

Ancient physical Israel served one purpose in God's free sovereign grace plan of redemption - the means through which would come the "seed of the woman" promised in Genesis 3:15. (Romans 9:5 "of whom concerning the flesh Christ came.) After Christ died and paid the sin debt of all of God's elect from the beginning of time to the end of time, ancient Israel had a 40-year probationary period that ended when ancient Israel was destroyed in 70 A.D.

The modern state called "Israel" has no connection to ancient Israel, as ancient Israel was done away with for good in 70 A.D. Have there continued to people who are ethnically Jews since then? Yes, just as other ethnicities still exist since then, as well.

The elect of God, spiritually speaking, are the true, spiritual Israel:

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 11:1, 2 debunks Replacement Theology.

I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. / God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew.

Ancient Israel did more than bring Christ. It was a light to the world, teaching God’s law and morality.

Quote the scripture to support a 40 year probationary period for Israel.

Gentiles are the "wild olive branches," who get our life from being grafted into the olive tree. The tree represents the covenants, promises and hopes of Israel (Eph. 2:12), rooted in the Messiah and fed by the sap, which represents the Holy Spirit, giving life to the Jews (the "natural branches") and Gentile alike.

We Gentiles are told to remember that the olive tree holds us up and NOT to be arrogant or boast against the "natural branches" because they can be grafted in again. The olive tree is NOT the Church. We are simply grafted into God's plan that preceded us for over 2,000 years.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Read my posts again. I never said Jew and gentile were not one in the body of Christ. I said national Israel and the church are different.

How can Jews and Gentiles be one and yet the nation of Israel be different, when that nation is Jewish?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I never claimed to be a dispensationalist. I am debunking the antisemitic heresy of Replacement Theology. The church has not replaced Israel in God’s plan. Jew and gentiles are one in the church, but after the church is raptured, there will be Jew and gentiles as separate entities.

You are fighting against a straw man my friend. The church never replaced Israel. The church has ever been since Genesis 3:15. Every believer pre and post cross are a part of Christ's body. Those in the OT looked towards the coming Messiah, and those in the NT look back, as the cross is at the center, where both covenants meet.

Look at this: But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”[Matthew 28:16-20]

Here we see that there were 11 Jews commissioned by Christ to take the good news to the nations, and to make disciples of the nation. It was Jewish Christians who were commissioned. The church never replaced Israel, but Jews and Gentiles alike make one new man in Christ.

 

[Ascetic X]

How can Jews and Gentiles be one and yet the nation of Israel be different, when that nation is Jewish?

Jew and gentile are one only when they are in Christ, born again, not before.

1 Corinthians 10:32

Give no offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.

 

[Ascetic X]

You are fighting against a straw man my friend. The church never replaced Israel. The church has ever been since Genesis 3:15. Every believer pre and post cross are a part of Christ's body. Those in the OT looked towards the coming Messiah, and those in the NT look back, as the cross is at the center, where both covenants meet.

Look at this: But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”[Matthew 28:16-20]

Here we see that there were 11 Jews commissioned by Christ to take the good news to the nations, and to make disciples of the nation. It was Jewish Christians who were commissioned. The church never replaced Israel, but Jews and Gentiles alike make one new man in Christ.

Israel of the Old Testament is not the church which is the body of Christ. Abraham was not a Christian.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Israel of the Old Testament is not the church which is the body of Christ. Abraham was not a Christian.

So, he did not believe in Christ? Are you willing to go that far? Plus, who was he speaking to? YHWH, who is God the Son.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Jew and gentile are one only when they are born again, not before.

1 Corinthians 10:32

Give no offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.

So, now we have three distinct groups and not one, the Jews, the Gentiles and the church of God. This is the logical conclusion of your belief.

 

[Ascetic X]

Abraham was not born again with Christ in him. Nobody was until Pentecost.

 

[Ascetic X]

So, now we have three distinct groups and not one, the Jews, the Gentiles and the church of God. This is the logical conclusion of your belief.

That is what scripture says. 3 distinct groups of people. Do you wish to deny this verse that is so clear?

Go to Israel and tell them there is no such thing as Jews anymore.

1 Corinthians 10:32

Give no offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I never claimed to be a dispensationalist. I am debunking the antisemitic heresy of Replacement Theology. The church has not replaced Israel in God’s plan. Jew and gentiles are one in the church, but after the church is raptured, there will be Jew and gentiles as separate entities.

The rapture occurs on the last day my friend. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.[John 5:28-29]

Here we see where both the saved and lost are resurrected on the last day.

“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.

’“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”Matthew 25:31-46]

Immediately after welcoming His sheep in, He then turns to the goats and renders their guilty verdict and are cast into the lake of fire. Neither of these two places teach a 1,007 between resurrections. There is one general resurrection.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Abraham was not born again with Christ in him. Nobody was until Pentecost.

This is getting creepier by the post. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.[Romans 8:9] The new birth is not a NT concept only, but they were born again under the OT economy by the selfsame Spirit. That is why Christ scolded Nicodemus about not understanding the new birth in John 3. Nicodemus asked Him this, “How can these things be?”[vs 9] Jesus replied, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?"[vs 10]

 

[Ascetic X]

The rapture occurs on the last day my friend. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.[John 5:28-29]

The rapture is not the return of Christ to reign on the earth. This is where your confusion lies.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That is what scripture says. 3 distinct groups of people. Do you wish to deny this verse that is so clear?

Go to Israel and tell them there is no such thing as Jews anymore.

1 Corinthians 10:32

Give no offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.

I do not deny that verse at all, but your application of it. You are using verseology, where you take a verse here, a verse there, here, there, here, there, and piecemealing it together. Scripture builds upon scripture, and you saying that the OT and NT are separate, shows how poorly you are at handling God's holy writ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The rapture is not the return of Christ to reign on the earth. This is where your confusion lies.

Oh, there's confusion alright, but I ain't the one confused. Jesus returns in the cloud not a yo-yo.

 

[Ascetic X]

This is getting creepier by the post. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.[Romans 8:9] The new birth is not a NT concept only, but they were born again under the OT economy by the selfsame Spirit. That is why Christ scolded Nicodemus about not understanding the new birth in John 3. Nicodemus asked Him this, “How can these things be?”[vs 9] Jesus replied, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?"[vs 10]

You fail to understand what born again means.

It is having Christ in you. Nobody in the Old Testament had the new birth with Christ in them. The Holy Spirit was temporarily upon certain prophets, but not born within all the faithful of Israel.

One body of Jews and gentiles was a mystery until Paul explained it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You fail to understand what born again means.

It is having Christ in you. Nobody in the Old Testament had the new birth with Christ in them. The Holy Spirit was temporarily upon certain prophets, but not born within all the faithful of Israel.

One body of Jews and gentiles was a mystery until Paul explained it.

It is an impossibility for anyone to be saved and not be born again. That is why Jesus (again) scolded Nicodemus for not knowing this. If Abraham was saved (and he was) he was also born again.