Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
I'll look into it.
Since this is regarding the same post where there are quotation marks and referencing it slipped by me somehow, I won't look into it again, because I already looked into it.
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Dispensational Truth - In Time & Eternity
- Thread starter JD731
- Start date
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
In these examples where the word 'church' is used in its generic sense, such as "the horse is a big animal" as compared to "a horse". They are all talking about "the church" indicating either one church or several or all the existing churches.
None of them are referring and teaching things that have to do with the general population of saved souls, unless they are members of a church, like they are talking about, simply because their content is concerning things to do with churches and not saved people in general.
"After completing the story of the conversion of this arch persecutor, Saul, we are told “the church throughout all Judaea, and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified.” This was the church at Jerusalem which was scattered, Acts 8:1, the only church Scripture tells us he persecuted."
"We believe that the word ekklesia is used generically many times in the remaining passages and because some scholars have failed to recognize this a new meaning has been attributed to the word wrongly. Of the disputed passages we would like to take four first that deal with Paul’s persecution of the ekklesia. Some believe the word does not mean assembly in these passages but means about the same as disciples. Some would call it the invisible church which means it contains all Christians whether organized or whether they ever meet in assembly.
"The four passages are as follows:
"1 Cor.15:9 “because I persecuted the church of God”;
"Gal. 1:13 “how that beyond measure
I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it”;
"Phil. 3:6 “Concerning zeal, persecuting the church;”
"Acts 9:31 “So the church throughout all Judaea,
and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified.”
There was one church in Jerusalem at that time and Saul persecuted it, in the verse above.
Those individual members of the church at Jerusalem were scattered into other regions where new churches eventually were organized.
"1 Cor. 10:32, “Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.” This passage is also disputed by some but the common meaning makes good sense and so a new meaning is not warranted."
"Hebrews 2:12: “Saying, I Will declare Thy Name unto My brethren, in the Midst of the church Will I Sing Praise unto Thee.” Assembly makes good sense here; the question is to what ekklesia is it referring? This is speaking of Jesus and His church we believe and it refers to the time He instituted the Lord’s Supper. Matthew 26:30: “And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the 31 mount of Olives.”
"Some think this is too early for a church but why is it?
"Jesus had already declared He would build His ekklesia (Mt. 16:18).
"He had given it a procedure for discipline
which assumed an ekklesia was already in existence (Matt. 18:17).
"The members were baptized believers; they had the gospel
and had been preaching it and baptizing their converts.
"The essential elements of a New Testament church are seen in the gospels.
In Acts 1 the disciples seem to be already organized
as they meet to decide on Judas’ successor to his office.
"The only answer that seems consistent with the information of the New Testament is that Jesus sang in the ekklesia begun during his earthly ministry when He gave it the second ordinance."
Quotes are from: https://static.secure.website/wscfus/3107401/2463194/overbeys-book.pdf, Written by my Greek and Hebrew Professor, the late Edward H. Overbey, B.A., B.D., D.D.
One teaching is below;
And a second teaching is below here;
1 + 1 does not equal 1.
1; a specific local assembly + 1; the totality of all Christians throughout history = 2.
"There is one body, and one Spirit,
even as ye are called in one hope of your calling" Ephesians 4:4.
Yep, they were passed around to the various churches,
because they had to do with church business. We have to assume that most everyone who got saved in those days got baptized into one of the churches, just guessing practically.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
There never was and never will be any concept or anything called "the universal church" that Jesus Knows anything about and Jesus Knows His Bible.
The general population of saved souls outside the membership of one of the Lord's churches, who are in the Kingdom of God comprised of all saved souls alive at any given time, have plenty that they can learn from the church Epistles, but the general content of the church Epistles is concerning the people who assemble as a church body.
Yes, or more than one church, or all of the Organized churches that exist at any given time.
All the passages in the New Testament can be and are to be read normally, with the normal definition of the word church being applicable to all of them, which means 'a called out assembly', by its meaning and usage at the time of the New Testament churches we see.
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Yes, there is one body aka one universal church of all believers throughout history, and Christ is the head of it. It is one universal church body, manifested in various locations.
"1 Cor.15:9 “because I persecuted the church of God”;
"Gal. 1:13 “how that beyond measure
I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it”
"Phil. 3:6 “Concerning zeal, persecuting the church;”
"Acts 9:31 “So the church throughout all Judaea,
and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified.”
Theses verses refer to not one local assembly, but to the totality of all believers currently living at that time.
It seems you think church means a church building with a steeple. But the eklessia met in homes, which tended to be very small, with only 2 or 3 rooms.
“The church throughout all Judaea, and Galilee and Samaria” cannot mean a church assembly in Jerusalem. This verse refers to different assemblies in 3 different locations. Jerusalem is not specifically mentioned, but it is in Judaea. The church throughout, throughout 3 different geographical regions.
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It's a simple matter of ethics. When you fail to cite your source, it is plagiarism, and that is stealing. If you wish to be seen as a thief, okay, but I certainly do not. That is why we carefully train and warn our college students, and fail them when they plagiarize.
A man of ethics will take my simple rebuke to heart. Prov. 9:8, "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee."
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
My Post #49; Dispensational Truth - In Time & Eternity
).
Elder Milburn Cockrell
Pastor - Berea Baptist Church
Mantachie, Mississippi
In Search of the Universal Invisible 'Church'
Chapter I
THE MEANING OF 'EKKLESIA'
Chapter II
THE MEANING OF 'EKKLESIA'
(Continued)
Chapter III
The Evils Of The Universal Church Theory
View Elder Cockrell's Home Page
In his article The Kind Of Baptists We Are, by Milburn Cockrell, (1941-2002)
he says, "WE ARE PRE-MILLENNIALISTS ON ESCHATOLOGY", and most everyone is that I have ever had church fellowship with, or knew in Bible College, but a handful are Amillennialists like myself.
I believe when Jesus Returns it is the End of the World as we know it, the End of Time, and the Consummation will commence, as Jesus Separates the goats from the sheep..
and my Post #51 Dispensational Truth - In Time & Eternity
both have the late Elder Milburn Cockrell as their source, in each of the quotes in those two posts with quotation makes around them ("xxx"), who I failed to cite and give credit where credit is due (as is generally my habit/ 1 in 50, I might have skipped unknowingly
). Elder Milburn Cockrell
Pastor - Berea Baptist Church
Mantachie, Mississippi
In Search of the Universal Invisible 'Church'
Chapter I
THE MEANING OF 'EKKLESIA'
Chapter II
THE MEANING OF 'EKKLESIA'
(Continued)
Chapter III
The Evils Of The Universal Church Theory
View Elder Cockrell's Home Page
In his article The Kind Of Baptists We Are, by Milburn Cockrell, (1941-2002)
he says, "WE ARE PRE-MILLENNIALISTS ON ESCHATOLOGY", and most everyone is that I have ever had church fellowship with, or knew in Bible College, but a handful are Amillennialists like myself.
I believe when Jesus Returns it is the End of the World as we know it, the End of Time, and the Consummation will commence, as Jesus Separates the goats from the sheep..
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
in JERUSALEM.
in JERUSALEM.
in JERUSALEM.
Jerusalem isn't mentioned, but it was the first and only local church body assembly that Jesus had Founded, up until that time. After the church in Jerusalem was persecuted, most of them scattered around to these other areas and eventually Organized churches in them, which is what churches do, like begets like.
Colossians 4:15; "Salute...Nymphas, and the church which is in the house."
"Notice: not that part of the church which is in his house, as it would have to read if the church were something scattered all over the world, but "the church which is in his house." Whether Nymphas had a very large house, or whether the church that met there was a rather small church, we are not told.
"What we are told is enough to let us know;
(1) that the church is not universal;
(2) that a church is something different from a house;
and (3) that a church may be contained in a house. All this is obvious in a single verse."
The Church of Colossians
By Rosco Brong
CHRIST HAS ONLY ONE KIND OF CHURCH ACCORDING TO THE NEW TESTAMENT
"And He is the Head of the body =
(the assembled church body
who were just mentioned in 1:2 "the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse:")
"the church" = (the assembled church body 1:2b; "at Colosse")
"Who is the Beginning, the Firstborn from the dead;
that in all things He might have the Preeminence." (Colossians 1:2,18.)
Speaking to the same people the Bible says, in Colossians 3:15;
"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts,
to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful."
Paul's message for those saints that made up that one body at Colosse
was where he exhorted them,
SINCE THEY ARE all called TOGETHER TO WORSHIP GOD AS "one body" with "one another"(13)
in 3:12;
"Put on therefore, as the Elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies,
kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13; "Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another,
if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14; "And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness
This man, Nymphas, seems to have been an inhabitant of Laodicea, and that the church there met at his house to Worship God, to pray unto Him, sing His praise, hear His word, and attend on all Ordinances, mentioned in Colossians 4:15; "the church which is in his house,"
JUST LIKE those in the church body at Colosse, WOULD MET to Worship God, to pray unto Him, sing His praise, hear His word, and attend on all Ordinances.
That's what a church is and what it is for, for the saints to Worship God the way the New Testament instructs them to. (Nothing in the New Testament ever alludes to a church being anything more than its name ekklesia means which is an assembly and there is never any reason for anyone, or any being, to switch that word ekklesis out and replace it with
Strong’s Greek 932, βασιλεία, speaks primarily of “kingdom”,
or Strong's Greek: 3965, πατριά (patria) -- Family, lineage ...)
The plain sense makes sense and to substitute these words doesn't make sense even it didn't.
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
You sure like to add your own words to what the scripture says.
If Paul meant ‘the church in Jerusalem’, I am sure he could have said so. But he persecuted the church in general, the assemblies in Jerusalem, Galatia, and Samaria.
When Paul said he persecuted the church, he meant not just in Jerusalem, but in other towns. One of them was Damascus, remember?
Acts 9:1
Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
If you think “church” always means one specific assembly in one location, you do not understand how tiny homes were in NT times. The assemblies met in homes in the first century.
The church in Jerusalem would not be in in one little home, it would be many different homes in Jerusalem. Each home could hold only 10 to 15 individuals, but thousands of believers lived in Jerusalem, so that means a lot of different home churches, not one big mega church.
I am currently unable to attend any church building. But when Paul says “the church”, or “the body of Christ’, I am included, for I am a member of the body of Christ, the universal church, the church in general.
When you read “church” in your Bible, which local assembly in your town does it have relevance to? The Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Assembly of God, or Nazarene church? Or does it refer, more likely, to the true believers scattered like wheat among the tares, the totality of all genuine believers, the church in general?
If Paul meant ‘the church in Jerusalem’, I am sure he could have said so. But he persecuted the church in general, the assemblies in Jerusalem, Galatia, and Samaria.
When Paul said he persecuted the church, he meant not just in Jerusalem, but in other towns. One of them was Damascus, remember?
Acts 9:1
Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
If you think “church” always means one specific assembly in one location, you do not understand how tiny homes were in NT times. The assemblies met in homes in the first century.
The church in Jerusalem would not be in in one little home, it would be many different homes in Jerusalem. Each home could hold only 10 to 15 individuals, but thousands of believers lived in Jerusalem, so that means a lot of different home churches, not one big mega church.
I am currently unable to attend any church building. But when Paul says “the church”, or “the body of Christ’, I am included, for I am a member of the body of Christ, the universal church, the church in general.
When you read “church” in your Bible, which local assembly in your town does it have relevance to? The Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Assembly of God, or Nazarene church? Or does it refer, more likely, to the true believers scattered like wheat among the tares, the totality of all genuine believers, the church in general?
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Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
Once we are Enabled to see that the plain sense makes sense we have what God would have us to understand.
I'm thinking that any explanatory commentary is well distinguished from the Bible text, for clarity, etc.
There was just one Organized and Established church at that time in existence. Paul said what he meant.
Nothing in the Bible refers to a church being in Damascus, at that time. You're adding to what the scriptures say.
Yes, I do. Or the word 'church' may be speaking of several specific assemblies ("the church in Asia") in the institutional sense similar to "the Public School System is uneducated." Each time the institution is being referred to, it is referring to the individual actual schools that exist; not to one in umber, total, Public School that is everywhere and invisible(?)
Churches didn't always meet in homes. That is not a restriction.
Respect.
This is from the attached doc., 1899 New Issue. Invisible 'church' idea.
"Baptists may be wrong in the distinctive doctrines they hold, but they cannot be wrong in standing consistently to them while they believe them to be truth. If they are wrong, they should be abandoned; but until discovered to be wrong they should be unflinchingly maintained. At the present time it seems to be conceded by everybody that in the main, the doctrines of the Baptists are Scriptural, and the world is willing to grant us reasonable toleration if we will be liberal and allow a mutual fraternity in church and pulpit with all others. But we cannot do this, without a contradiction of our own essential and fundamental doctrines, and, hence, cannot do it at all.
"Our fathers were bitterly opposed in the consistent stand they took for strict Baptist practices, by those who believed in what was known as the "church-branch theory." It was contended that the "real church" was the "universal
[p. 100]
church," composed of "all the saved," and that all visible churches were mere human conveniences, and that, all taken together, the Christians amongst them made the "true church," while the denominations were "branches of the church," and all on a par...."
This is from the attached doc., 1899 New Issue. Invisible 'church' idea, 12 of 13.
"12. The believers in the universal church are not agreed as to how one gets into it. Baptists are supposed to be put in by conversion; Methodists are supposed to be born members of it; Presbyterians baptize their babies into it; Campbellites baptize sinners into it; Episcopalians enter by confirmation; the Hardshells have been in from the foundation of the world; Mormons are immersed into it; Catholics are sprinkled into it, and the Universalists get into it without doing anything! If there is such a church, it should have some uniformity about it, and it would have. But the dreamy fiction has neither form nor fashion, in either its membership, its laws, its terms, or anything else. It is all a dream."
...
"Just to reinforce what a church is I offer this excellent definition set forth by J.E. Cobb in his Baptist Church Manual:
“A New Testament church is an assembly of people called out from the world by the preaching of the Gospel accompanied by the Regenerating Work of the Holy Spirit, and baptized in the faith and fellowship of the Gospel, to a life of conformation to the Will of God, to execute the Will and Perpetuate the Ordinances of Christ until He comes.”
From the attached article: WHAT IS A CHURCH by Tom Ross
This is from the attached doc., 1899 New Issue. Invisible 'church' idea, pt. 7 of 13.
7. The "invisible church" is a medley of contradictions, if it is anything. It is said to have in it the saved of all denominations. These "saved" people at the same time that they are in the "invisible church" are also in their different denominational churches, and hold to all the peculiar doctrines of their several denominations. They have Mormons with their polygamy, Catholics with their water god, Episcopalians with their sacramental ritualism, Universalists with their no-hell doctrine, Presbyterians with their unconditional decrees, Methodists with their
[p. 107]
apostasy, Campbellites with their baptismal salvation, Baptists, with their close communion, all mixed together in one "invisible body," cemented together by the conflicting doctrines of infant baptism vs. believer's baptism; salvation by grace vs. salvation by works; final perseverance vs. apostasy; open communion vs. close communion; episcopacy vs. congregationalism; affusion vs. immersion, and a hundred other conflicting doctrines! All these people, with all these doctrines, are supposed to be peacefully and unconsciously pillowing their heads upon the bosom of this "invisible church!!" Is it possible that such an outrage on common sense to say nothing of the outrage on the Bible, can have serious advocates amongst men?